Transcript 0:00 [rock music] All right, welcome on in to another action-packed edition of the Between the Hash Marks podcast. A week two recap, but more importantly, a week three look ahead of the 2025 NFL season. 0:12 As always, I'm Matt Lombardo, joined by my friend, colleague, mentor, the purveyor of the Two Deep Zone, Mike Tanier is here. Mike, how you doing, my friend? I'm doing great. Guess what I found at the local 7-11? 0:22 $2 for 3 50 cents San Pellegrinos. Oh. [laughs] That's a great price for premium Italian sparkling water. I'm gonna open one up right now so that, uh, that we are hydrated for this high-powered podcast. Absolutely. 0:35 Hopefully the skunks in your backyard are slightly less hydrated than they were a week ago when we were on the search and on the prowl for ways to remedy the situation. 0:44 But my, my backyard still s- smells like a Newport 100 from all the things I put out there. No sign of the skunk, and this is good. This is the real deal. 0:52 They didn't, they didn't pour out the San Pellegrino and put Jersey tap water in it. I'm, I'm very excited. Awesome. Hope you can enjoy throughout the pod and beyond. Big show ahead. 1:00 We're gonna dive into some of the big games, some of the, uh, most consequential moments of some of the games over this past weekend in week two, and if you enjoy the podcast, please go ahead and subscribe in the Apple Podcast store, on Spotify. 1:13 You can check out my YouTube channel, where we have the full archive of the podcast and every interview we've ever done at MattLombardo975. But even more importantly, head over to the Two Deep Zone on Substack. 1:24 Subscribe to Mike Tanier's Two Deep Zone. Subscribe to Between the Hash Marks on Substack, where you can be abreast of all the biggest storylines each and every week. 1:31 Uh, mandatory reading for, for both publications if I don't say so myself. Agreed. Help us out. Like us, subscribe us. It doesn't cost you anything, makes a big difference. 1:40 Help us get attention in this attention economy. And the best way to get attention in the Apple Podcast store, subscribe there, leave us a five-star rating and review. Those reviews really do help boost the show. 1:51 They make it easier for people to find us in your podcast feed, they bump us up, and, and more importantly for you personally, because everybody has to have some self-interest, if you leave a five-star review, Mike and I will read them on the air. 2:03 Yeah, anything you say. You could rip us. You could plug your own small business. I mean, I'm not above doing that. We, we will say it. We will say anything, uh, within the bounds of decency. 2:15 It w- it's Ron Burgundy reading the teleprompter when you leave us a five-star review. [laughs] That's just what it, what it comes down to over here. Brain off, mouth on, go, yes. 2:24 A- a- and Mike, let's start here because it is going to be backup-palooza across the NFL in week three because it was just a disastrous week for NFL quarterbacks. Thursday night, Jayden Daniels goes down. 2:37 Sunday night, bookended by J.J. McCarthy going down. In between, Justin Fields gets hurt, and I know there are others that I'm missing along the way as well, but the backups, in fact, are coming in week three. They are. 2:50 You missed the biggest one. You missed Burrow. Yes, Joe Burrow, the biggest, the biggest injury, the most consequential one of the bunch. Right, right. 2:57 We almost had one on Monday night where Baker Mayfield kept rolling up, but, like, nothing stops Baker Mayfield. He, he just, uh, he just keeps playing. He'll just, like, take shots or whatever and keep going. 3:05 But yeah, it, it only took to week three, and all of a sudden you're looking at these match-ups saying, "Well, wait, who's the starting quarterback?" 3:12 Uh, a- and I guess the big one is, is Cincinnati versus Minnesota, where we entered th- you know, last week thinking it was gonna be one thing and now it's a completely different thing, different expectations, different storylines, et cetera. 3:25 For sure. 3:25 And, and just to, before we get into this conversation in depth, the, the Cincinnati Bengals losing Joe Burrow for at least three months puts you in December, and if you're out of the playoff race at that point, you start having the difficult conversations of, "Do we shut Joe Burrow down for the year? 3:40 Do we write this season off?" Th- this was a team that was on the fringes of the Super Bowl conversation going into the year because of Joe Burrow, the leading passer from a year ago. 3:49 This was a team that seemed to shake off their September slumps. They found a way to get to 2 and 0. Seemed like, you know, as after week one, that they could kind of take their breath after getting a division win. 3:59 A- and here you are again, a third significant injury costing Joe Burrow and the Bengals significant time since he was first drafted number one overall in 2020. 4:08 Just an abject disaster for the Bengals, who you talk about this game being one thing and now becoming another. The Bengals' season and their outlook completely changes after this injury. 4:19 Right, it goes from that position where they were popular Super Bowl sleeper, Super Bowl dark horse, I know they were on your list, down to, well, can they manufacture a playoff run out of this? 4:29 And the answer to that is probably yes. The silver lining is that they have their experienced backup Jake Browning, went 4 and 3 as their starter back in 2023, led the NFL in completion percentage in 2023. 4:41 A seven-game sample, so that kind of was an asterisk, but still demonstrates that he knows what to do, and w- what to do, he showed that on, uh, Sunday when he had to come in and relieve and, and beat the Jaguars. 4:53 What he has to do is get the ball to Ja'Marr Chase and get the ball to Tee Higgins, and when you do that, you have a chance of beating your typical opponent when you're the Bengals. 5:02 And you have to hope that your defense doesn't give up 28 points. Th- th- that, that, that, that's the caveat of- Right... Cincinnati's situation. 5:09 It, it's not just that you lose Joe Burrow, but you lose an offense that's built to win shootouts because you have a quarterback capable of keeping you in those games. 5:18 Now i- it's an offense that has to survive with the backup quarterback and do enough with the d- with a defense that has been an absolute sieve the last couple of years. 5:27 I thought they were a little bit better Sunday against the Jaguars, uh, but, but they're so all in on, uh, on Jake Browning that the Bengals- Yeah... 5:36 today, Tuesday, before recording this, they signed not only, uh, Mike White to the practice squad- Yeah... they signed Sean Clifford to the practice squad. 5:45 Two backup quarterbacks in the room, very limited experience for, for the Big Red Dog. [laughs] Uh, n- not so limited experience, but not such great consistent experience from Mike White. Right. 5:56 Uh, Bengals making moves to, I guess, solidify insurance i- in, in that quarterback room with Burrow, uh, being out for a significant amount of time.You need somebody and they're officially s- uh, signaling, "No, we're not trading for Kirk Cousins. 6:10 That's banana pants." Yeah. "No, we're not going to try and lure Derek Carr, uh, Derek Carr or David Carr." Derek Carr. David Carr, yeah. 6:17 So, so quickly I forget, out of retirement and also have to trade to get his rights from the Saints. We're not doing these things. 6:22 We are rolling with the guy who's been our backup for three years and knows the system, et cetera. You have to get these guys in there behind the, behind him. 6:30 By the way, they look pretty good defensively against the Ravens, but the Ravens are the Ravens. Yeah. And they, they got the job done against the Jaguars. It really was Jaguars drive down the field, touchdown. 6:40 Jaguars drive down the field, oops, interception. Jaguars drive down the field, oh, 20 penalties, kick a field goal. Oh, drive down the field, fourth and seven, don't make, get it in. Defense doesn't look that great. 6:51 They're playing... It looked like the Jaguars were playing against themselves often on defense, as they so often do. Just as the Browns, I think, were playing against themselves a little bit. 6:58 The thing is [laughs] they're gonna get the Vikings with Carson Wentz. Right, and, but, but they also still have Brian Flores and I think that this is- Yeah... a great jumping off point to- Right... 7:07 you had a great idea when we were talking about how to structure this podcast with all of the quarterback injuries. We- we'll play best and worst here. Yeah. Give me your best quarterback situation and your worst. 7:17 I- I'll just throw it to you, the best backup situation going into week three, y- you're a head coach wanting to lead one of these teams, which squad, which quarterback do you hitchy and wagon to to try to get a win on Sunday? 7:30 Uh, well, I, I, I would've thrown Mac Jones in there, but let- that's fine. But, like, uh, I'm gonna go with Browning. Yeah. 7:37 We're at the point with Browning also, and then the people who really, if you wa- if you go back and watch that game, you will see him making adjustments at the line, calling audibles at the line, changing his protections a little bit, and after doing all that, say, "And what's my audible that I'm going to call? 7:52 How about a receiver screen to Ja'Marr Chase?" Like, I, I'm not going to reinvent the wheel here. I'm gonna get the ball to these guys. 7:58 He did get the ball to Gesicki and some of these others in these situations, but he is reasonably talented, he's very experienced. That's all, that's all you can ask for for a backup now. 8:08 I, I mean, I know there are some dark horse candidates, but if the defense holds up h- their end of the bargain, they can go 500, maybe a little better 500 with Browning. 8:16 I have a feeling you're gonna want to throw that Sanpellegrino through the, the- I know what you guys said... recording device, uh, yeah, you, to splash me. I know it's coming. No. 8:24 Uh, the best situation i- is Carson Wentz and the Vikings- Ah... in that same game, because- Yeah... not only does Carson Wentz get to operate in Kevin O'Connell's quarterback cocoon- Yeah... he's a 63% passer. 8:34 He, he's played in a lot of games. He's, he's played in one playoff game before, uh, getting hurt. 8:39 He has Justin Jefferson, and Justin Jefferson, to me, uh, you can make the same argument for Ja'Marr Chase, but Justin Jefferson is the great equalizer, that I'm gonna throw this up there, Justin Jefferson's down there somewhere, he's gonna bail me out, he's gonna be my big play factory. 8:53 And, you know, he doesn't have to go against Brian Flores' defense. He doesn't have to- Right... 8:58 go against these exotic blitz concepts a- and rush packages that'll make your head spin and put pressure in your face all day long. 9:06 He has that defense backing him, buttressing him against one of the more anemic passing defenses in the NFL. 9:14 If it's just one week, if it's just this game, give me Carson Wentz as the best backup quarterback option going into week three. 9:21 See, I was actually thinking the same thing, and, uh, a- another factor is there's no expectations coming off of McCarthy. O'Connell's offense was already rubby, rubber baby buggy bumpered for McCarthy. Let's get real. 9:32 Yeah. They were not running a full system there. They were still in training wheel mode for him. So you get to come in and, you know, even the regular game plans probably would have been scaled back, less to learn. 9:43 In terms of Wentz's athleticism, it's probably honestly on par with McCarthy's, assuming he hasn't really deteriorated in the last year or two. Wentz, a big strong dude, throws hard. 9:52 The problem is the brain cramps, where you have his brain cramps versus McCarthy's virtual rookie brain cramps almost a wash. 9:58 The reason why I didn't pick Wentz isn't because of Eagles 2018 to 2020 or the Colts or anything else like that, is that he joined the team on, like, August, what, 28th or something like that. Right. 10:09 They brought him in late as opposed to Browning, I think, four years in the system now. So that's why I'm leaning that way. I'm gonna say this right now. That game, Vikings minus three, 10:21 you take that or do you take the Bengals? It's so tricky. It, it's a great number. It... I, I was just looking it up. It's three and a half. It, it, it's a great number. Oh. 10:30 I, I almost have to look at this and the great differentiator is the defense. It's Brian Flores and the defense, and I know they didn't look great on Sunday night. 10:40 I know that Bijan Robinson, you know, after the catch, was just a dynamic weapon for, for the Falcons and imposed his will. I, I, I like Jordan Mason, he ain't Bijan Robinson, you know what I mean? 10:53 I, I, I look at, um, you know, the Bengals running game, it, it, it's not Bijan Robinson. 10:58 It, it, it's to me, I, I think that Flores is the equalizer here, and I think that if I were gonna play this game, which I won't- Mm-hmm... 11:06 because I don't trust backup quarterbacks, if I'm betting this game, I'm taking Minnesota. Now, i- if you are and you're not, shop it, 'cause I'm seeing three, you're seeing three and a half. 11:14 If you get the minus two and a half, it's a Vikings game, folks. It's always- Yeah... a three-point game, so you wanna be mindful of that. But you mentioned Mason. Aaron Jones is out. Yeah. 11:22 So that's another little thing. You wanna look, you gotta look at the injury reports. Darrisaw, left tackle, could possibly be back. We have to see, a lot of factors. 11:30 But yeah, it, it's an interesting spread, let's put it that way. For sure. So that, we're, we, we're in the same game with the best, uh, scenario, but what about in, in the worst backup situation going into this week? 11:40 There's, I think there's a runaway favorite for this category. Yeah, well, there's two runaway favorites. I'm gonna, I'm gonna maybe throw a different one. I'm gonna go with Marcus Mariota and the Commanders. Wow. Wow. 11:53 Listen, I know, I know which one you've got spooled up. I'm talking about the differential. 11:59 The differential between Jayden Daniels, who's going out there and was a, you know, an MVP candi- candidate until he met Micah Parsons, um, versus Marcus Mariota, who bounces around the league looking for jobs where he won't actually have to play.That's kind of the Marcus Mariota secret right now, where it's like i- if, if the Bills called him and said two million a year to back up Josh Allen, like, "I am there." 12:22 In, in. In. I went to Buffalo. What is your favorite coffee flavor, Josh Allen? What do you like, sugars, creams? Tell, tell me, what do you like? 12:29 Um, uh, so Mariota will go out there, we'll hear about, like, his professionalism, et cetera. By the way, it's not official yet that Daniel's is out, but we'll see. 12:37 And then we'll see that creaky, wobbly, doesn't wanna take a hit, can't throw the ball more than 30 yards downfield Mariota. It'll be a mess. I think I know who you're gonna say, though. It's the Jets. Yeah. 12:47 The JTS Jets Jets, what are we doing here? Because I, you know, the, it's Tyrod Taylor, and then who? The, there's no other quarterback currently on the active roster. 12:56 I know Adrian Martinez I believe is still on the practice squad. 12:59 But Tyrod Taylor leads the Jets offense, Mike, that managed just 83 passing yards on Sunday against Buffalo, against a Bills defense without Ed Oliver, their best interior pass rusher, one of the top five interior defensive linemen in the sport. 13:15 He's going up against the Buccaneers- Yeah... in Tampa. Yeah. Good freaking luck to Tyrod Taylor going into Tampa with that offense the way it's functioning right now. 13:25 I, I don't think that you could, I don't think you could draw up or write a worse quarterback situation than the Jets have right now without Justin Fields. 13:33 Now, oh, by the way, we watched Monday Night Football last night. I was just, I was just enjoying, I almost wanted to grab my popcorn, for the Todd Bowles blitzes, where there are six guys at the line of scrimmage, 13:44 and then five guys rush the quarterback, but it ain't the same guys ever. Like it is- No... 13:50 never the same guys, where I'm, like, hitting the replay button like, "Where did, where did, uh, T- Tykee T- Tykee Smith, where did he come from?" He was nowhere, he's coming off of here. 13:59 And Bowles has done this for years, he's just, it seems like he maybe had some, some bonus packages lined up last night. So you're gonna be doing that against Tyrod. Here's a, a, Tyrod is bad, this is a bad situation. 14:09 Do you, did you ever see The Shining? Yes. Okay. You remember Scott Man Cruthers running to the rescue? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 14:16 You think, uh, the first time you see the movie, "Oh, this, he's gonna end, he's gonna come in, he's going to save the day." Just not quite. [laughs] Not quite. 14:22 He walks in the door, he, he g- he gets, like, stabbed in the back. That's Tyrod. Tyrod's coming to save the day, I'm gonna, I'm the backup quarterback- It's bad... 14:30 I'm, I'm the custodian, the caretaker, whatever, I'm gonna run in here and save the day, and he gets hurt immediately. He will get hurt in that game. 14:39 And the number three I believe is Brady Cook, and I'm not, I have to jog my memory who Brady Cook is. I think it might be Case Cook is his cousin, I'm not sure. Yeah. 14:48 I, I, uh, co-host a podcast, or I'm a weekly podcast guest on my boy, uh, p- Paul "Boy" Green Esdine from Heavy Sports every Sunday morning- Mm-hmm... 14:57 talking about the Jets, talking about the biggest storylines around the NFL. Mm-hmm. This is a situation the Jets have allowed to fester, dating back to training camp. 15:05 Uh, they, they took Cook I believe in, like, the sixth round. Um, a, a, a young player they were trying to develop. Okay. They're trying to develop Adrian Martinez. Yeah. Not a lot of experience there. 15:16 They tried to, after final roster cuts, claim Tommy DeVito off waivers. He gets claimed by the New England Patriots. But that doesn't mean you stop looking, right? Yeah. 15:25 I mean, you could easily toss a fifth round pick the Cleveland Browns' way and trade for Kenny Pickett, and you could have picked up the phone, called the Eagles about Tanner McKee or, or Dorian Thompson-Robinson, or Dorian Robinson-Thomas. 15:38 What, whatever you're trying to do. Thompson-Thompson-Thompson. You, you've, yeah. And, and, you know, it, to me, Mike, i- we talk about, like, moves that signify that you are tanking. 15:49 Leaving your quarterback depth chart as Justin Fields and Tyrod Taylor this far into the season, um, and this far into the week- Mm-hmm... 15:58 signals to me that you have one eye at least on Arch Manning, on Cade Clubnik, on Drew Aller, on this quarterback class coming in, uh- Mm-hmm... 16:07 because I just don't know how you let yourself this inept at quarterback this late into the year. 16:13 I, I understand keeping Tyrod because he is a good locker room guy, g- good guy in the, in the quarterback room, et cetera. You have to look at his injury history when he's- Right... and say, "We need a number three." 16:23 But they, they're saving money. They're, they've got Aaron Rogers' bucks that they're, they're, they're trying to amortize right now. That's ridiculous. So I don't, I don't know who we're going to see. 16:32 We, I, I, Brady Cook, Martinez, whatever, I don't know how much Tyrod we're gonna see. The only reason I didn't pick this again is 'cause there's no expectations on that team anyway. Yeah. Right. 16:41 That's, that's- But the, the expectations flew out the door in week two. Yeah. 16:44 Because if you watch week one, you know, you can make the argument, okay, y- you don't have the special teams fumble gate, everything's going your way with, with Breece Hall gashing them for over 100 yards, and you're leaning into Justin Fields' mobility and you're throwing route concepts that he's comfortable with, on intermediate routes you're setting him up for a walk-in naked bootleg score near the goal line. 17:04 Okay, you know, maybe you build on it against Buffalo, a- and you go out against your division rival at home, Fields passes for s- 56 yards and touchdown, he leads the team in rushing with 49 yards- [laughs]... 17:17 and you just get lambasted at home 30 to 10 against the Bills without one of their best, uh, defensive players. 17:24 And again, it just seems like if you were at all optimistic about the Jets after week one, you realize after week two just how far away this team is from being relevant and anywhere near complete. 17:36 If you were ever optimistic about the Jets, I, I don't know what to tell you. [laughs] But it, it will, it will be fun. There's gonna be some interesting spreads, interesting lines. 17:45 Uh, I was gonna look it up and I realized I don't care that much. I'm not gonna bet on Tyrod Taylor. Who cares? Yeah, I'm not gonna bet on Tyrod Taylor. 17:51 You know, you look at a- another situation, uh, the AFC West, and I don't think that... Uh, some people might have looked at it as more of a, one of the more competitive- Yeah... 18:00 divisions in football going into the year, but two weeks in it might also be one of the more entertaining that we've seen so far. It's topsy-turvy. It is abs- Yes... 18:10 it, it's kind of upside down world right now, and, like, every team has a, has its own little weird storylineYeah, a- and let's just start right at the top. 18:19 The game of the weekend, one of the games of the year, at least on paper going into it, was Eagles-Chiefs- Yeah... the rematch in, in Arrowhead of the Super Bowl. You know, I'll throw this to you. The Chiefs are 0-2. 18:30 There's some hand-wringing here. 18:32 I think some of it is justified based on how vulnerable they looked in the Super Bowl, how vulnerable they looked against the Chargers, coming up short in some big spots against the Eagles on Sunday offensively. 18:43 Thought the Chiefs defense w- by and large did its job, did everything you could ask it to do, but they're 0-2, and they're 0-2 for the first time under Patrick Mahomes. 18:51 Patrick Mahomes is 0 for his last three for the first time dating back in his career. What's the worry meter for you in Kansas City? 18:58 I- it's moderate because you put that in with the way the Bills look and the way the Ravens look, and even if you start stacking, 'cause we can do- we'll do the whole storyline here. 19:07 Well, Rashee Rice will be back and Xavier Worthy will be back, and the Chiefs peak in December or January and all that. 19:14 How much of that do you have to stack to say this team does not look nearly as good at th- as those other teams? That they don't really look good [laughs] by the definition of looking good at all. 19:25 So for me, saying that the Chiefs are done or saying that the Chiefs are in trouble, that's like saying candy man into the mirror. It's like saying Beetlejuice three times. Like, I don't wanna do it. 19:35 You're summoning these, these dark forces and you, and you don't wanna do it. But if we start talking about, well, is this a team that's going, going to win 10 games 19:44 or 11 games and be on the road for the playoffs and have to play some team that you could, you could trip over early in the playoffs, absolutely. Could they not win this division at this point? 19:54 Absolutely, because the, the Chargers are now stacking tiebreakers. That's significant, and these, this is very much uncharted territory during the Patrick Mahomes era. 20:03 For sure, and I wrote in the column on Monday morning that Mahomes' magic can't cover all the cracks. Yes. And you're starting to see, uh, Travis Kelce's hands not be as reliable as maybe they once were. 20:15 You're starting to see, uh, Mahomes' inability to hit guys like Thornton when they have five yards of separation. Mm-hmm. 20:21 You're starting to see the defense give up just one or two big plays when you're dialing up zero blitzes, you know, 45% of the time, whatever it was that Steve Spagnuolo drew it up. Right. 20:31 But like you said, m- my whole stance on these Chiefs right now is talk to me at Thanksgiving. When I'm sitting down with my Chamay in one hand and I'm- [laughs]... 20:39 carving up the turkey, talk to me then after they have Rashee Rice back, after they have Xavier Worthy back, and tell me how they're doing then. 20:47 Because we all know, dating back to his time in Philadelphia, Andy Reid's teams peak in November and December when the games matter most, but they've buried themselves in quite a hole here, and I spoke to an NFL scout after the game. 21:00 He said, quote, "They have no one who can stretch the field vertically, especially with Xavier Worthy being out. Until that gets fixed, their offense is going to look like it does. 21:09 They also haven't addressed their lack of a running game," unquote. They rushed for one more yard than the Eagles did on Sunday, which is kind of ironic. But, but I just look at this offense, it seems out of sync. 21:20 It, it seems like they are missing Xavier Worthy. It seems like they don't have that dominant running back who can, you know, salt out the game, milk the clock when they need them to, sustain drives. 21:30 There seems to be structural issues with this Chiefs team that we haven't seen in the Mahomes-Reid era. And the offensive line ain't great. No. 21:38 It's maybe looked the Super Bowl, but it's still, it's still ki- a work in progress. You know, look at it this way. If you get, like, think in terms of match-ups for those receivers. 21:46 A lot of times you saw, like, Quinyon Mitchell, the Eagles good cornerback, he's on Hollywood Brown. And then you have the Adoree Jackson, who is a walking crouton that you should be able to exploit. They can't. Right. 21:59 They can't. So they, they, they move guys around, so sometimes Hollywood's on him. Uh, uh, he- he's, he's covering Juju Smith-Schuster. You can cover Juju Smith, s- Schuster. 22:06 You, you could cover Juju Smith-Schuster at this point. And Noah Gray is running around, is kind of acting like the slot guy. And, you know, Kelce's Kelce, where he's, like, still making these sort of veteran plays. 22:16 What looks very slow, bats the ball in the air, balls are bouncing off his hands a little more often, et cetera. Your slot Cooper DeJean guy can cover him for most of the game. 22:25 Just from a pure match-up standpoint, it's not there. So what does that mean? It means Mahomes has to scramble around. 22:30 Mahomes, uh, Andy has to design this sort of, like, intricate concept to get somebody the ball in space. He can't just play straight up. You're right. It's like a thousand paper cuts, not enough Band-Aids. 22:41 And, you know, we, we can talk about, like, okay, well, they're gonna peak whenever. Okay, so they're at the Giants next week. Okay, W. Yeah. Following week, Ravens. That's a big test. 22:51 Th- th- th- that to me is, that's the barometer game, right? 22:55 Because I, I think that where we're headed with this Kansas City Chiefs team is you can quickly get out of the conversation for home field advantage throughout the playoffs in the AFC when you have Baltimore, when you have Buffalo, when you have the Chargers. 23:09 Y- well, you know, you, you look at w- how they've been so successful, it's been winning in Arrowhead. 23:14 Sure, they went into Baltimore for the NFC title game and g- AFC title game and got it done a couple years ago, but, but it, it matters on that side of the bracket. 23:21 I don't know that Kansas City, with the offense the way it looks right now, goes into Buffalo and takes care of business. 23:26 They might have to go on the road in that first playoff game if they let this get too far away from them. Right. Baltimore in week four. Week nine, you get the Bills. Okay, they get the receivers back. 23:37 I don't think the receivers stack up to say you're gonna be able to beat the Bills in Buffalo in early November. Eh, let's put four losses in there. So that's a team that's at five and four at that point. 23:47 That's not a team that's guaranteed anything in the playoffs. 23:52 Uh, and it's not a team that if, if not for their pedigree, w- you would look at it and say, "Well, clearly they're just, they're just sizing up for a run right now." 23:59 You start just simply using the past as a crutch and a justification, not as a logical argument for saying why you trust this team. 24:06 And I don't wanna be that guy because we both saw what happened last year, all of the, the one-score wins- Mm... and the, the, the missed field goals against the, the Broncos. Yeah. 24:16 You know, the, the, these fluky ways that they won. Yeah. Ba- back then it felt like that was the Chiefs finding a way. Yeah. 24:22 That that was Mahomes, Reid, Spagnuolo finding a way because of the talent, because of the pedigree, because of the, quote-unquote, "mystique," they figured out a way to win close games. Yeah. 24:33 In hindsight, looking at it from F- February onward-It might just have been the ball bouncing their way and a harbinger hiding some of the issues that were starting to fester last year, that they were good enough to get through to get to a Super Bowl that, but they might not be able to get through this year to make that kind of run again. 24:53 Gosh, golly gee, it sure sounds like they just wanted a bunch of penalties to ba- bail them out, uh, against the tush push, didn't they? 25:00 All of a sudden- So what do you, what do you, what do you make of this tush push, uh, discourse this week? 25:04 I mean, you, you have the, the offici- I, I, I believe it was Dean Blandino who came in a- and during the broadcast flat out said, "I'm sick of the tush push." 25:12 You have, you know, Adam Schefter come out and say that he thinks this might be the last year before the tush push gets banned. Peter Schrager echoed that this morning on ESPN. 25:21 It, it just seems like the Eagles are successful with this play again. 25:24 They, they lean into it because that's what they do in short yardage situations, and the ground swell to ban the play seems to just pick up momentum again. Haters and crybabies, period, full stop. Yeah. All right? 25:39 Uh, this new thing, oh, now there's penalties. It's hard to officiate. I heard Sean McDermott crying like a baby man about this the entire off-season. We must have done 10 segments about the tush push- We did. 25:52 We did a whole podcast, yes... off-season, where everybody who k- popped out of their little hole and said, "Ah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah," about the tush push, talked about safety and all of these other things. 26:03 No one mentioned, oh, offsides penalties. You know why no one mentioned offsides penalties or formation penalties? 'Cause you know what happened when the Eagles, uh, jumped offsides during the tush push in the past? 26:15 They got penalized. Yeah. 26:17 So now it happens in a Chiefs game, so it's nationally televised, and all the Chiefs fans are out there, and they, "Oh, well, the, this play is hard to officiate and the, and the, and the Eagles get away with penalties." 26:29 You made that up. You just made that up. Your last argument h- held no water, so you saw one thing happen, and you made up a new argument. 26:37 I go back to the phone call that I had, uh, two days after the NFL failed to get enough votes to ban the tush push. 26:44 The phone call that I had with an NFL executive told me point blank, "Play better on first and second downs." Right. 26:50 Y- you don't need to eliminate the play because next thing you know, you're gonna be eliminating passes to Bijan Robinson in the flat. Right, right. 26:56 Next thing you know, you're gonna be eliminating, you know, nine routes to Matthew Golden because- Yeah... he's too fast. Yeah. 27:01 Next thing you know, you're going to be eliminating, uh, off tackle, uh, pitches to Saquon Barkley because he's too good off the edge. 27:08 Play better on first and second downs so that it is third and five rather than third and one or third and two, and you take the play out of the playbook. 27:18 It, I, crybabies i- is a great way to put it, crybabies and complainers, but, but I just don't understand how when they run it successfully, it's not, "How do we beat this play?" It's, "How do we get rid of it?" 27:30 And all these coaches, all these glorified gym teachers in the NFL not only won't adopt the k- tush push, but seem to be, like, not sneaking on purpose now. 27:40 Like, I saw so many goofy, weird variations on fourth and one plays where Sam Darnold is rolling out. 27:46 I saw Tyler Warren in the backfield, like, uh, l- in a shotgun formation take, like, a option hand off on fourth and one. 27:54 It was absolutely banana pants because it's like, "Well, now we can't run anything, and Andy's out there in the T formation, and it's getting stuffed." 28:00 You're calling the dumbest plays in the world because you're trying to p- actually, like, sort of distance yourselves from the tush push. I know how you think. I understand your psychology. 28:08 I used to work with gym teachers. I know how their brains work. And, but you know who... Here, here's one who didn't do that. You know, last night, Geno Smith, now he didn't run the tush push. 28:17 By the way, Justin Herbert did, so I guess it's cool now. If Justin Herbert runs the t- tush push, is it okay? Okay. Geno didn't run the... Right? And he wasn't even trying to score. 28:26 He was just trying to get out of his own goal, goal line. Right. Now it's an act of heroism because Justin Herbert did it. All right, so Geno doesn't run the tush push. 28:34 What Geno does, and what Chip does, they line up in the I formation like it could be anything with their wide receivers on the field- Yeah... and he calls hike real quick and sneaks. He actually sneaks. And sneaks. 28:45 It's a sneak. Yes. You have to worry about Gentty in the backfield. You have to worry about a play action pass. It could... You have to have a, a safety over here on Thornton or whatever. 28:54 Uh, yeah, y- there's a lot of things you can do, and it's almost as good as the tush push, but they refuse to do it because they've got these weird hangups in their silly little brains. 29:05 And Chip Kelly's an innovator, has been since Oregon, was to a degree, especially the first season in Philadelphia, certainly was at Ohio State last year with those running backs and the weapons he had, uh, in terms of the offense. 29:15 It's adapted. It's evolved. You're starting to see it i- in Las Vegas with the Raiders. You, you mentioned Justin Herbert, and is this the year of the Herbert? M- Mike, I say wake me up when December ends. 29:26 [laughs] Uh, apo- apologies to Pearl Jam. Yeah. Wake me up when December ends, because he's appeared in two playoff games against the Texans and the Jaguars. 29:34 He's a 52% passer in those games, with 515 yards, two touchdowns, four interceptions, and the largest come from ahead loss in post-season history. 29:44 [laughs] A- and last year with all of that going on, before the loss to the Texans, I wrote 2,500 words on how the Chargers built a juggernaut around Justin Herbert, spoke to folks around the league, talked to former Chargers, all with the idea in mind that Jim Harbaugh was the missing piece, the running game was going to power them, that they were going to turn things around, take the pressure off of Herbert so he could thrive. 30:08 Same old story, same old song and dance. They're 2 and 0, and I will tell you, Mike, I will not be fooled again by Justin Herbert. By the way, that was Green Day, not Pearl Jam. I, I couldn't- Oh, great point. 30:19 [laughs] I could not let that one go. I, yeah, and Her- Herbert's playing well, certainly. Uh, you know, he, he played fine last night. He, he, they, they scored 20 whole pointses. 30:28 I know they could've s- they, they probably could've scored a little bit more, whatever. Um, here- here's how I'll say this. Herbert's fine. He's a good quarterback. Last night, Monday Night Football, 30:38 power rank the four quarterbacksJeez. All right, uh, w- we'll start at the bottom. Um, l- let's just go with, get out of the way, Geno Smith at number four. 30:47 I, I, I've, I, I've never quite understood the fascination with Geno Smith 2.0. It'd be a great situation with DK Metcalf and Jackson Smith-Njigba the last two years in Seattle. He's number four for me. 30:59 CJ Stroud, I'm still waiting to see the play match the hype with CJ Stroud. H- you know, a pure passer, Herbert's probably one. Herbert two for me. 31:10 A- and I'm going to fall on the conversations that I have with coaches and executives around the league about Baker Mayfield, that he's more of the complete package, that mentally he's in a great place, he has a great supporting cast. 31:22 I'm putting Baker Mayfield a- at number one. Baker Mayfield number one for me, that's the order I put them in too. Certainly Herbert number two. I guess we can... 31:29 Actually, we're not gonna talk about Stroud, but it's like, um, we're kind of in that negative space where the, a- a- as much as I liked him his rookie year, it's like, well, what can he do? 31:39 And it's like, well, something. Yeah. 31:40 [laughs] Y- you, you know, uh, whereas Baker was out there with two injured offensive lineman, Godwin out, Godwin's back-up out, against one of the best pass rushes in the league, playing the quick game, scrambling, overcoming injuries, doing all these other things and getting a comeback win at the end. 31:56 So, so if we start doing this with quarterbacks and power scaling them, we, we know where Herbert's going to end up, and he will end, he will end up in the top 10. Around nine, around 10, depending on where. That's fine. 32:07 It looks like defense is better, Henley and, and, and, uh, what's the guy's name? Tar- Tar- Tarheel, Tar... The, the cornerback, he looks real good. I, I... Tar He- Yeah, I'm, I'm drawing a blank as well. Ah, Steele. 32:22 [laughs] Yes. Steele. I think his name is Steele. Anyway, g- good players there, station-to-station offense. But they're a threat. They're a threat to win the division right now. They've got a head-to-head win- Yes... 32:33 and they're 2 and 0 in the division, and they're going to play, they have a good, very good quarterback, they're gonna play c- uh, conservative style of football. And I don't know what the Broncos are at all. 32:45 Yeah, what was that? Especially at the end of the game, um, with the... [laughs] As Sean Peyton calls a full-fledged k- blocked field goal, they get the leverage penalty after the first kick. 32:55 You wouldn't even need it to try to block... 32:58 Now, you don't know that going in, but you don't even need to try to block that field goal because the kicker misses it about a section and a half of seats wide right- [laughs]... a- at Lucas Oil Stadium. 33:07 Just not even close. Then they give up the game-winner. Uh, they, they, they send the fans out to St. Elmo's and Prime 47 happy. 33:15 You know, I, I talked up, and a lot of people talked up, the Broncos defense being a, a vaunted defense, one of the most talented and stingiest defenses in the sport going into this year. 33:26 They gave up 475 yards of total offense. They, they allowed Daniel Jones, Daniel Jones, to sit back and carve them up and carve out an MVP resume. 33:34 23 of 34, 316, a touchdown, 107 passer rating, and a rushing touchdown as well. And oh, by the way, Jonathan Taylor ran roughshod 165 yards. [laughs] Well, it's... The, the Colts might be s- quasi, semi for real. 33:50 They might be the team to beat right now in the AFC South. The Broncos l- had the personnel to be significantly better than this. I'm not quite sure what's happening there. Y- you know, it's... 34:02 That game was weird before that kick. Yeah. Uh, yeah, I mean, there, there was a, a play where it looks like a Colts player jumps offsides, and J.K. Dobbins, who's about to take a hand-off on a drive, goes, 34:16 "Points, points, points," and doesn't bother taking the ha- and the ball gets snapped- [laughs]... and Bo Nix looks at him, he's going, "Uh," and, and Bo Nix is like, "What to do?" 34:25 And he, like, winds up taking a, I think he took, like, a four-yard loss because the ha- the, the running back was too busy, uh, self-officiating the play. 34:33 Um, then there was another penalty after that, so the B- Broncos were in this position where it looked like they were gonna march down this field and score. 34:39 They wind up backtracking and doinking a field goal, so that leads to this other, uh, this, this other field goal. They're having trouble with kickoff returns. Broncos are giving up a ton of yak. Yes. 34:49 You know, watch that game, and w- and, and, uh, Taylor's long run, 34:54 and, and the Colts are doing some great things schematically, but man, running back gets into the flat, it's Taylor, sometimes it's Warren lining up as a running back but g- going into the flat, whatever. 35:04 They're getting 20, 30 yards. I don't know if this is overaggressiveness. 35:07 I don't know if it's the fact that, uh, the other cornerbacks, who aren't, uh, certain, still are kind of a weakness, that Moss and McMillan aren't, aren't particularly great. 35:14 But right now, uh, the, um, the Colts were able to find those weaknesses. Titans tried. They got a rookie quarterback. But they're the Titans. 35:21 And you got Ridley dropping the ball, and they've got no one else they can get the ball to. I don't know what that Broncos defense is gonna be. And talk about giving up yak, 35:30 I don't know if there's a guy who can break a tackle on the Broncos offense. No, and, and, you know, Tony Franklin 89 yards and a score, the 42-yard bomb, a little bit of a deep threat. 35:41 Marvin Mims, his speed should serve them better- Yeah, he's the man... better than it is. He, he's the guy. Th- they really haven't gotten R.J. 35:48 Harvey involved whatsoever through the first two weeks, and he was a guy that a lot of people, myself included, were very bullish on going into this year. 35:56 It, it, it seems like they're putting a lot on Bo Nix's shoulders- Yeah... 36:00 not balancing the way that you would expect a Sean Peyton offense to be in terms of the ground game, power run concepts, and those sort of things. 36:08 I, I'm, I'm just surprised that they haven't been able to impose their will more than they have through the first two games. 36:14 Right, and a lot of times on offense, again, it's a three-yard completion that results in a four-yard gain because it's so built around the idea you gotta get the ball in space, and there's no space. 36:24 We got a big one, uh, this week. They're gonna face the Chargers. That's gonna teach us something. After that, the Broncos get the Bengals and the Eagles. 36:32 Um, you could see, you could see a two and three, you could see a one and four in that situation, so I think righting the ship and making a statement, they're gonna get the Chargers on a short week. 36:41 I think that is in LA, but that, th- that's in LA. They gotta win that oneYeah, you gotta get a division win under your belt. Yeah. 36:49 Yeah, because if you, i- if you allow the Chargers to start 3 and 0 in the division, you, you're looking at a Buffalo Bills having clinched five weeks to go- [laughs]... in a year like a season ago, 36:59 i- if you can stack three, three division opponents, three division wins, uh, in, in the first month of the season. Bills, by the way, will, will clinch on Thursday night against the, uh, Dolphins. 37:10 [laughs] It's a 12 and a half point spread, and the only thing that, that has ke- kept me from hammering it right now is Thursday Night Football doofuscery, where like, "Oh, it was a missed field goal. 37:21 Oh, uh, uh," Oliver's not playing and then someone else isn't playing because, like, you know, it's a short week. But man, yeah, this is gonna be a Thursday night spectacular. 37:29 Yeah, it, it's gonna be a mess, kind of like, uh, Geno Smith's performance was a mess on Monday night. 37:34 You knew it was going to be bad on the first snap of the game, where the ball bounces off two different Chargers defenders- Yeah... 37:42 gets intercepted, and this is on the way for Geno Smith finishing 24 of 43, 180 yards, three interceptions, and a, get this, Mike, a passer rating of 37. Not, not... Suboptimal in a 20 to nine loss to the Chargers. 37:58 Plus a bunch of deflected passes that were not intercepted, some of them batted at the line, a couple of sacks, a couple of runaround plays at the end, granted they're down by two scores at the end. 38:08 A lot of fit and finish errors for the entire offense, where it seems like guys are bumping into guys, et cetera, so you don't put it all on Geno's plate, but a lot of it [laughs] goes on Geno's plate. 38:18 That's a bad interception early in the game. 38:20 Before halftime, third and six, he launches another one into no man's land, and, and that gets intercepted, where maybe you just take something shorter along the way, try to get the first down, set up a long field goal, whatever. 38:32 Um, you know, I, uh, I think the Raiders are going to hang around. Let me tell you this, uh, I don't know if you were... I, I, I was not awake for the fourth quarter of that game. 38:40 Did you see the fourth quarter of the game? I did not. I, I, I, uh, I saw the first quarter and I passed out on the couch. You passed out on the... [laughs] 10 o'clock, midnight with the Chargers is hard. 38:49 Um, y- you know, g- Geno keeps m- marching down the field and they fail. The Chargers keep trying to give them the ball back. You had a, uh, a, a third and one, and Herbert throws a near pick. 38:59 I'm not gonna go into big Herbert thing. He threw a near pick, everybody that does it. Fourth and one for the Chargers, near midfield, they're gonna go for it. Uh, you wanna give it to Najee Harris? 39:10 Do you wanna run a Herbert sneak? Omarion Hampton? Hear me out, end around from the shotgun to Darius Davis. Now- Yeah, that takes forever to develop. Yeah, so that, that, that's not how you draw it up. 39:26 And everybody seems so uncomfortable with the call that they fumble the snap, the, the, the exchange, and the ball bounces around and the Raiders get the ball. 39:33 So the Raiders get the ball back at midfield with timeouts and everything like that, and that's when Geno Smith starts running around in circles, where it's like, "Hey, maybe drive down the field methodically, get a touchdown, then it's a one score game." 39:45 I think if they'd gotten a field goal, it would've been eight, if I'm doing the numbers right in my head. Um, just, just, just mad. It's just weirdness. 39:52 Very weirdness, and, and the whole situation in Vegas feels very weird to me, because you bring in an established head coach like Pete Carroll, you're trying to win in a hurry, obviously is the oldest head coach, uh, in NFL history, breaking his own record going into this year, so you sign a veteran like Geno Smith. 40:08 I, I get wanting the veteran quarterback. 40:10 You draft Ashton Jeanty because you wanna have a sports car of a running back to power the offense, a- an offense that has Brock Bowers, an offense that has Jakobi Meyers, who doesn't really wanna be there. 40:22 Um, it, it, it just feels like, especially with the defense of Max Crosby up front, it, it just seems like they don't really know what they want to be. Right. 40:30 And you have a quarterback that I don't really know at this stage of care- his career what Geno Smith is, because we mentioned it earlier, it feels like so much of his success came with D.K. 40:40 Metcalf, came with Jaxon Smith-Njigba, came with Noah Fant. Uh, your reliable pass catchers, big play receivers i- in an offense that didn't like to run the football. 40:50 They were bottom four in the league in rushing offense the last three years. I, it just feels like you're putting too much on his plate with not a good enough supporting cast for him to maximize it. 40:59 His, his, a lot of his success was, "Hey, we went nine and eight, and we're tired of Russell Wilson, and this guy's different." 41:05 A lot of the success was we were just redefining success for, "Hey, that wasn't a bad little year you had there, veteran who can move around a little bit." 41:12 That's kinda what it i- and that's kinda what it is right now, you know? Now you're two years removed, you're not... You're figured out to a degree, and now there's actual expectations. 41:20 By the way, Geno, there's also something about Geno, and it, this has nothing to do with Geno. 41:26 I have never seen more bad snaps in the red zone than when Geno Smith is a quarterback, and I'm not talking about snaps that he drops, it's almost like a, a, a, something that happens to the, um, to the center. 41:38 Center yesterday bounced one off of his own butt, like at the 10 yard- How does that happen? How does that happen at the NFL level? How does that happen at the NFL l- level? Yeah, right. 41:47 Exactly, and so the ball dribbles around. That happened at least four times last year for the Seahawks. It's just a weird thing. 41:54 I just thought I would bring that up, 'cause Geno makes a lot of mistakes in the red zone, but they seem to be contagious. 42:00 Yes, the whole situation is not great, kind of like the Giants offensive line, not, not great at all- [laughs]... when you look at that game on Sunday afternoon. 42:06 One, one of the more entertaining games o- of the entire Sunday slate, the overtime. 42:11 I, I was talking to Joe Staszak, my former partner on radio, the de facto editor of Four Downs every Monday, I was talking to him about this, that if, if Brandon Aubrey played in Philadelphia or he played for the Rams or he played for the Ravens or he played for the Bills- Uh-huh... 42:27 you're talking about Brandon Aubrey as a Hall of Fame kicker. He has a Hall of Fame leg. He, he is Captain Clutch in big moments. 42:34 He made the 64-yard field goal to send it to overtime with five to eight yards of distance to spare on top of that, just insanity. 42:41 But he's stuck mired in mediocrity in Dallas, where I'm not sure they're ever going to be m- more than 500, better than 500 as long as Jerry Jones is still calling all of the shots. 42:51 But they n- they did what they needed to do, the Cowboys did, a- a- against a, a plucky Giants team that looked explosive in a lot of moments. 43:00 But when you needed Russell Wilson to be explosive, he became Russell Wilson.What do you think it would take for the Bills to trade, what would Jared want for Aubrey? He'd probably ask for seven first round picks. 43:13 [laughs] Yeah. Uh, two, two fir- two first round picks and Ed Oliver. That, that's what he would probably ask for. Yeah, Ed Oliver and, uh, was that Johnny Walker Blue, what is that? 43:21 [laughs] Yeah, 'cause, 'cause it's, it's too obvious the thing that Jared, but no you're not getting this. Like, I can see visually what this guy brings to the table here. 43:29 It's not like Micah Parsons, I don't really understand what he does, but 64 yard field goal go a long way, points go on board, you know? Uh, [laughs] 43:39 I, I, I completely forgot what we were, what, what, what the throw was there. Uh, can, can we talk about James Hudson? Yes. Yes. He just got penalized for holding just now. 43:50 That's his fifth penalty in the last three minutes. [laughs] When is Thomas coming back? Y- yeah, that's what they need. A- a- and, uh, you know, y- you look at what Russell Wilson did with the numbers, they were nice. 44:03 The connection to Malik Nabers was there. Yeah. You can't tell me that Jackson Dart is any worse in clutch moments than what Russell Wilson was in that game. You s- did you see Dart? Did you see what he did? 44:16 It's all r- y- you blink and you missed it, but it, but it wasn't great, no. He, he did trip over his own feet. 44:21 Okay, obviously you're coming into a game cold and, and, and you have this weird package that you're running, and I think he managed to hand off once or twice and he tripped over his own feet. 44:30 But, uh, I mean, what, what happened is, and the, yeah, Wilson didn't play badly. It's almost like the proof of concept for Daboll, except that I don't like the concept. 44:39 I think we just set the a- alarm clock for Dart back three, four, five weeks. At least two weeks. Right. 44:45 You know, I, I, I think that, you know, whatever happened w- with Kansas City at home, you know, it could get ugly at MetLife if that's a blowout. 44:52 You, you have to think about this, they're, they're 0 and 2 coming in, off of that o- that overtime loss in Dallas to a division rival. You're coming home for, um, y- your home opener. 45:02 If, if Mahomes looks like Mahomes and Steve Spagnuolo, you know, forces three Russell Wilson interceptions, it could get pretty ugly i- in MetLife Stadium late with the calls for Jackson Dart, with the booing. 45:17 It, it might become unavoidable that, that holding on and holding out hope that Russell Wilson is going to have enough stretches like that third quarter, connecting with Wan'Dale Robinson and Malik Nabers, left in him to keep Jackson Dart on the bench. 45:33 I'm calling a backdoor cover. It's a 6.5 spread. I think- Ooh... I think the Giants keep it weirdly randomly close with their pass rush. 45:43 I, I, I mean, I think that the, the Chiefs are gonna win it, don't get me wrong, and if it gets to seven and a half I'm playing the heck out of it. Uh, I'm, I'm playing the heck out of the Giants. 45:50 But w- w- whatever it is, it was a worst case scenario if we're, if we're waiting for the reality of the Russell Wilson, uh, uh, era to end. 46:00 The simultaneous big statistical game, and like he looked pretty good, not, you know- Yeah... in the game as well certainly, and a loss. It's like, at least get a win out of this. 46:10 Yeah, the fourth quarter he goes six of eight, 123 yards, two touchdowns. I mean, he was vintage Seattle Seahawks Russell Wilson- Yeah... but when you needed that version, he became Denver Broncos. 46:22 [laughs] He became Pittsburgh Steelers Russell Wilson in overtime. And in the first quarter, if you go back and watch the first quarter- Yeah... 46:29 the Giants were able to move the ball, they're getting penalties earlier in the game, and they're settling for field goal over and over and over again. 46:34 And I was looking at that and just, th- like they're gonna lose by two touchdowns, even though they're outplaying the Cowboys right now. They didn't, but there's still so much work for that team to do. 46:43 I, I do wonder though, th- this whole season is about showing progress, right? This whole season about, i- i- is about can Brian Daboll do enough to save his job into 2026? 46:54 Can he avoid following in the footsteps of Ben McAdoo, Pat Shurmur, Joe Judge, uh, a- a- and, and being fired within the first four years o- of his tenure? 47:06 Does a close overtime loss with the offense putting up those kind of fireworks, does that assuage John Mara, or, or does that have him kicking the trash can in the press box on the way- [laughs]... 47:16 to the post-game press conference, as he's been known to do a couple of times at MetLife Stadium a- after some brutal losses over the last several years when I was on that beat? 47:24 I mean, I don't know, but like the 26 penalties- Not great... right, that would be one where y- you know, as you're sitting there owner and saying, "Well, I'm evaluating my coaching staff." 47:34 And yeah, you got a guy like Hudson out there who's struggling to do anything, but 20, be- be- 21, I think, official penalties, 26 if you don't count all the ones that were declined or like two penalties on one play or whatever. 47:45 A lot of evidence there to suggest that, like, that was as good... If that's as good as it gets, then you're in trouble. Daboll's in trouble. Yeah, I, I, I think you're right. 47:56 I think that it's, it needs to be wins, it needs to be a, a record closer to 500. It can't- Crispness... continue to be close losses. 48:04 Crispness to some degree, where you can say, "Well, I, I, I understood what happened there." Not like, "Oh, well, we just had like 20 pass interference penalties." 48:13 Yeah, you know, and then we have- We're still undisciplined, yeah... 48:15 undisciplined, we have a letup at the end, and this nitwit opposing coach who was like, "Well, I'll just set up for a 65 yard field goal like that's normal," and it pays off for him. Y- you know, anyway. 48:26 One of the things we love to do on this show, and one of the premises is we're going to look ahead, we're going to look forward, we're going to project what happened in week two into week three and beyond. 48:36 Looking at week two, looking ahead into the crystal ball, who was the biggest winner this weekend for you? Biggest w- winner of this coming weekend? This past weekend, but projecting it forward. 48:47 Kickoff- What happened this weekend, the, the, the, the, the biggest positive best case scenario moving forward o- off of what we saw. K- kickoff returners. Kickoffs are back, baby. Yeah. Kickoff returns are back. 48:58 I, I, I, I, I tweeted a bunch of statistics earlier about what's going on. The, and, and, and to spin that a little bit into something that's, uh, that's meaningful-The strategies around kickoffs are now changing. 49:09 You have teams like the Eagles going and getting Tank Bigsby to try and get him out there, 'cause they realize they need a return man. It's not just, like, goofiness. 49:16 You had the Packers on Thursday night, where they're in control of this game, so the commander's like, "All right. We're gonna have Deebo return kicks." Deebo returns a 50-yarder. 49:26 The Packers try to say can t- keep control of the game, like, "We're gonna, we're gonna touch back. We'll give it to-" Yeah. We'll do a great big 35. We'd rather have it at the 35 than at midfield or further. 49:35 Right, right, exactly. We're not gonna, we're not gonna lose on this. 49:38 So you have all these tactical things that are now happening around that, um, and I, I find that fascinating, and we're gonna see which teams have an advantage. 49:47 You talk about having a great kicker, like an Aubrey, that could be an advantage for the Cowboys. You talk about having a Turpin as your return man, he has a bunch of 30-yarders. 49:54 Although it looks like right now he's having a hard time seeing the ball or whatever. Uh, when he figures that out, he's a danger. You're gonna see all of this difference, so you can't just run to the bathroom. Right. 50:04 It's a play again. Play again. I talked to a special teams coach, you know, during the pre-season, who told me it's a play that you need to strategize for. 50:11 You, you need a plan on kickoffs, you need a plan on, on the returns- Uh-huh... and it, it's no longer just booting it through the uprights and starting at the 20, the 25, or the 35. It, it is a real play. 50:22 Biggest winners for me are the Green Bay Packers, and they played on Thursday. 50:25 They didn't even have to play on Sunday, because you look around the division, the Vikings get their lunch handed to them by, uh, the, the Raheem Morris and the Falcons defense. In that game, JJ McCarthy goes down. 50:37 Y- you look at the qu- the situation in Detroit, sure, the Lions hung a 50 burger on the Bears, but the Bears now have all kinds of question marks, and they already have a win in hand over the Detroit Lions. Yeah. 50:49 And we spent a lot of time talking about backup quarterbacks on this show. Mike, the quarterback situation I don't know that we're talking enough about is Caleb Williams and the Bears. Yeah. 50:58 Because when you look at the first quarter on Sunday, he was 10 of 19 for 128 yards, one touchdown, and one interception. A- after the starting 10 for 10 against the Vikings, he was 11 of 25 for 154 and a touchdown. 51:14 And, you know, you look at this, when he gets outside of those 15 scripted plays- Yeah... it's like the wheels fall off. There's this Jekyll and Hyde nature to Caleb Williams and the Bears. 51:24 They have the Cowboys this week, followed by the Raiders. Mike, am I crazy to think that if this doesn't turn around, if this doesn't get better quickly against Dallas, 51:34 is it wild to think that Tyson Bagent could be the starting quarterback in four weeks after their bye week? I, I, it's not crazy at all. Not even remotely crazy. 51:43 If you're saying, like, six weeks down the line, absolutely, 'cause I think the leash will be very long. I don't... I wanna, I wanna be out of the country when it happens, frankly. 51:52 I, I did, I did Ty Dunne's, uh, podcast last week. Ty wrote the big three-part expose on all the Bears' dysfunction, including Caleb Williams, including Ryan Poles, et cetera. He takes a lot of heat for it. 52:03 I, I sort of took some residual heat for it. Um, let's say Caleb Williams was never gonna be an insta-fix. Yeah. 52:11 Um, and if he has gone from v- a less than diligent student last year to a fully dil- diligent student this year, it might not be enough, because all the things that should've been learned up until then, when you're playing catch-up and you're trying to play catch-up and it's week three in the NFL, could be too much. 52:31 And, uh, our, our friend Matt Verderame pointed out, you know, they, they, they didn't have to go and give Bagent that extension in the off- Right... season. Right. Right. 52:40 Y- you, y- there's one thing to have continuity, but there was no continuity in, in coach and backup quarterback. There was no, like- Right... "Hey, he's gonna help Caleb Williams learn this system." He was there. 52:49 He, he was, he's kind of the insurance policy, not, not necessarily the continuity veteran backup. And if you're Ben Johnson, eventually you need to set the tone and build a winning culture. 52:59 And, you know, the, I- I- I'm, I'm a believer in what Ryan Poles built there. I thought the offensive line has been fine. I thought the additions w- were pretty significant up front. Y- you have Rome Odunze. 53:10 You have D.J. Moore, who's playing some of the best football of his career stretching the field. You bring in Colston Loveland. You're gonna have to fix your running back problem. 53:18 You're probably gonna have to draft a running back pretty high because of DeAndre Swift's fumbling issues continuing to be significant problems. 53:25 But there might not be no bigger concern than Caleb Williams and, and, and figuring out how to beat a defense once you're outside of the comfort of that first 15-play script. And I think that's part of it. 53:37 Yeah, Swift had the fumble. There was also a fourth down conversion that failed for the Bears, and I'm watching it and it's like, "Well, Bears are in the game and it's not Caleb's fault right now. He's doing the thing." 53:47 And then he gets out of the pocket and throws the wackadoodle ball downfield- Yeah... to Joseph. 53:53 And it's like, these are the, these are the plays that you are being coached to not do, that the coach wants you to dump a three-yard pass to Loveland or whatever is there, or eat the ball or just charge up field or slide or whatever, and you do that, and it's like he's gotta get that out of his system. 54:09 For sure. Let's look ahead to, to week three. Let's hear your circle it game. Circle it game is the two best one-on-one teams you're ever gonna see, the Ravens against the Lions. And I don't have to elaborate any more. 54:20 We wanna see who these guys are when the chips are down. Have the Lions solved their problems? Have the Ravens solved their problems? 54:27 Can the Ravens play a complete game against a good opponent without doing some doofy stuff in the fourth quarter? We're gonna find that out and it's gonna be a corker next week. What do you got? 54:35 Can Derrick Henry, uh, remember- Yeah... how to hold onto the football, right? Hey- I mean-... that's, he's fumbling. That's, that's weird, you know. That could be a- Strange... 54:42 interesting old guy problem that's, that's cropped up. For sure. I'm gonna go, uh, Eagles/Rams. Playoff rematch from- Yeah... a year ago. 54:50 Um, th- there's a lot of hand-wringing in the Delaware Valley, I'm sure that you're familiar with, I've heard it myself, about the Eagles passing game. A lot of concern about Kevin Patola, the play caller, and- Yeah... 55:00 you know, w- why isn't the vertical passing game working and, you know, they can't seem to get Saquon Barkley going, other than when they need him in a few big moments. 55:08 And you have this Rams team, I, I'm still not sold on, on Matthew Stafford a- and that offense, but Jared Verse, emerging superstar-Defense really took it to Cam Ward last week, forced him into some mistakes that even a veteran quarterback would make based on, you know, some of the looks they were showing up front and some of the stunts. 55:26 I, I think it's a litmus test, barometer, prove-it type of game for, for both teams. Give me, uh, Eagles/Rams. 55:32 Right, and I don't know who covers Davante Adams, if I'm assuming Quinyon Mitchell is gonna be covering, um, Puka Nacua. 55:39 Uh, one thing, so I've been doing a lot of kickoff, um, uh, uh, uh, you know, uh, research and everything here. Rams have been pinning opponents on kickoffs. 55:49 Like, no one gets pinned on kickoffs anymore, 'cause it's like you gotta kick it to, like, the two, and then the guy's gonna get it, like, to the 28 or whatever. 55:55 They've been pinning them at the 14 yard line, 15 yard line, something the Eagles are gonna have to look out for, 'cause that's a game within the game. 56:01 I mean, we'll see if Tank Bigsby is available and becomes a, a, a, a, uh, force on that. But there, there's a lot... You're, you're right. That is a huge game, big playoff remate- rematch. 56:12 I'm looking forward to that, too. I just re- I just remembered, Lions/Ravens is Monday night. I gotta wait longer. It is. It is. It's Monday night. 56:17 I'm gonna have to wait longer for that, so the big one to watch for on Sunday gonna be the Eagles/Rams. Yeah, and I can't wait for, for Lions/Ravens myself, because will the real Detroit Lions please stand up? Yeah. 56:27 Are they the, the Hemi-charged sports car that was, you know, steamrolling and making a point against Ben Johnson and the Bears, or are they the offense that got, you know, bottled up and, and stalled out in Lambeau against Micah Parsons and Edrin Cooper and Keisean Nixon and all these guys, uh, in Green Bay? 56:46 What are the Lions? W- I, I have a pretty g- good idea what the Ravens are. I still think- Right... they're one of the more complete teams in all of football. 56:54 This is the biggest test the Lions have, uh, outside of maybe the, the rematch against Green Bay. Oh my God, the Sunday nighter is Chiefs/Giants. Get the beer. 57:04 I was thinking about trying to make it my way up to that one and cover it- Yeah... but then I realized it, it's the Giants. [laughs] It's the Giants, and then when you're in that press box and you've got an entire... 57:15 You're not writing a game, or you're writing the entire week one- Oh, my God... I st- I stop going to any Sunday press boxes, 'cause it's like, "What am I doing to myself?" You're driving- Exactly... 57:24 driving down the turnpike, trying to write it in your head, uh, with a coffee in your hand, going like this. It's, yeah, bad, bad, bad choice. Little bit too much. What's coming up on the Two Deep Zone? I don't... 57:34 Oh, yes. Um, Dolphins tank watch. A tank watch- Set your wa- I'm not wear, I'm not wearing the watch, but set your watch to it. They are tanking. 57:41 Like, 72 hours, uh, uh, before we, before they lose, you know, 0 and 3, and we might even see a McDaniel firing, so getting that one out there early. 57:50 And again, I'm also gonna be doing, later in the week, some of this kickoff stuff, you know, put that, like, a lot of data on the, on the board. What do you got going on? Yeah, mail bag on Friday, which is a lot of fun. 57:58 People can pose their questions to me. I will ask my sources around the league, agents, coaches, players, executives. Uh, I get a lot of response each and every week to the mailbag. It's a lot of fun to put together. 58:08 Readers seem to dig it, so we'll have that. Uh, might even dive into, uh, Cam Ward's first two games. 58:14 Um, you can check out what happened there, some of the things that went well, uh, against the Rams, some of the things that didn't go so well in the debut. 58:22 Uh, but, but that's kind of what we're, what we have on the horizon here. Fantastic. Can't wait. Be sure to subscribe to Mike Tanier's Two Deep Zone on Substack. You can subscribe to Between the Hash Marks on Substack. 58:32 And if you enjoy the show, like my YouTube channel @MattLombardo975, subscribe on Spotify and, of course, Apple Podcasts. It's the Between the Hash Marks podcast. Leave us the five-star reviews. 58:43 Let us know what you like, what you don't like. We will read those reviews on the show. Mike, enjoy week three. This was a lot of fun. Can't wait to chat next week. Absolutely.
