Transcript 0:00 [upbeat music] All right, all right. Welcome on in, everybody, to an extravaganza week one recap, week two look ahead edition of the Between the Hash Marks podcast. 0:11 As always, I'm Matt Lombardo, joined by my friend, colleague, mentor, and the purveyor of the Two Deep Zone, off one of the wildest opening weekends of an NFL season we've ever seen. 0:22 Michael, how are you today, and what's your big takeaway from the weekend? A big takeaway from the weekend is there is a skunk in my neighbor's backyard. Oh, no. 0:30 And I've been talking about this on Blue Sky, so every five minutes I feel compelled to be like, "Is he out there?" Um, anyway, my dog is safe for now. 0:40 He doesn't go out back unless I can, I can physically have eyes on him. And I bought these, like, skunk, uh, anti-skunk balls that kind of smell sort of like a cro- cross between mothballs and mentholated cigarettes. 0:53 Um, and now I can, I can barely breathe. I do have a tip for you, that you can avoid the cigarette smoke smell and still get rid of your skunk issue. Napalm. Well, that too. But buy yourself a trap. 1:06 My neighbor thought he had a groundhog in his front yard. Now, our, our yards kind of butted up against each other. This was a townhouse. His was a single family home. The trap was in the middle of the two yards. Uh-huh. 1:16 He thought he had a groundhog. 1:18 Well, one morning, I just happened to be looking out my front window, and I see a baby skunk trapped in the trap, and the mother skunk and the father skunk racing over to said trap to try and rescue the baby, and also it appeared to kind of yell at him, like, "Hey, we told you to stay away from that trap." 1:38 Get a trap, you'll get him in there, and you can have somebody take it away. Worst sales pitch ever. You go from one skunk to three angry, screwed up skunks. This is horrible. 1:48 'Cause, like, say, I just catch one in the trap, and then I walk up to the trap and, and, and, and the, and the skunk looks at me and is like, "Gee, if only I had some ranged attack that I could use at you that won't be stopped by the bars of a trap. 1:59 If only I had the one thing that you're trying to avoid chambered up and ready. Come a little closer. Come a little closer. I'm totally vulnerable. Nothing I can do to stop you from walking right up to me." 2:09 I, I, I hate that idea. Because I thought about that. I get the trap, then what do I do when he's trapped? Wait for him to starve to death? That's cruel. I, I'm not like- Yeah... 2:17 even for a skunk, not capable of that level of cruelty. Yeah. Right. So I'm just... I'm trying to repel him. 2:22 If I, if I, if I put enough things out there that smell like absolute chemical warfare, he'll go back into the woods behind my, my yard. That, that's my hope. There you go. 2:32 [laughs] We have a lot to get into on the NFL front, in addition to our, uh, extermination strategies for, for the 10-year residents. Well- But before we get into all of it- Le- leave it in the comments. 2:41 Leave it in the comments. Help me. 2:43 Explain to me how to get rid of this skunk, and I don't want to hear how you get, like, a, a lady cat and you paint white on the back and you send it in the opposite direction, and then the skunk gets horny and goes after him. 2:52 Don't want to hear that. No Putine Pu situation. No Looney Tunes reenactments. No canceling the skunk, no sending the skunk to human resources. I need real solutions. 3:01 Anyway, go on with what you were trying to do, Matt, like what- Hit us in the comments on YouTube at MattLombardo975. You can comment on the Substack article at Between the Hash Marks. 3:10 Make sure that you subscribe to Mike Tanier's Too Deep Zone on Substack. We have a big show. 3:15 Uh, Lorenzo Alexander, former Buffalo Bills linebacker, will join us to break down his thoughts on what is an early candidate, perhaps even favorite, as Game of the Year from game one. 3:26 But if you're a fan of the show, please subscribe on YouTube at MattLombardo975. Subscribe on the Apple Podcast store. Leave us those five-star reviews and ratings. We read every single review on the show. 3:37 The five-star ratings help boost us up in the algorithm, grow the show, make us easier to find. And if you like the show, great. 3:43 I- if you find, uh, my- myself more repellent than the skunk repellent that Mike has put out in his yard, or you're annoyed by the hot takes, well then, rip us. Blast both of us. 3:54 W- we'll read it on the air, uh, and feel good about getting that five-star review. We have absolutely no pride. We will do that. So feel free, do it. Leave us a five-star review. Help us help the algorithms help us. 4:07 Absolutely, and let's dive right into what we saw on Monday night, because there were so many great games on Sunday. Mm-hmm. But, but the finale of week one really lived up to the billing in my opinion. 4:17 You had Caleb Williams and Ben Johnson, a, a, a really gangbusters debut for about 18 minutes- [laughs]... followed by Brian Flores tightening the screws on Caleb Williams and Ben Johnson, just as J.J. 4:30 McCarthy turned in one of the more impressive second halves of an NFL debut for a, a quarterback that, that you can recall in recent memory. 4:38 Uh, just a really thrilling game to cap a thrilling weekend of NFL action, Mike. 4:43 Y- you know, it's funny, and, and there's layers to this, and we're gonna be, like, talking about these two quarterbacks for the next year and then some. 4:49 There's, like, a style of game that's like, wow, the offense really looked good for one drive. Yeah. [laughs] You know? Like, like the old scripted plays. 4:57 Oh, Bill Walsh's scripted plays, and everything was fine, and then they had to start adjusting and things went haywire. There was a little bit of that for Caleb Williams last night, where it seemed like for the first... 5:05 He went 10 of 10 to start that game. Like, any hot take you had about Caleb Williams, you know, being fixed, like absolute magical work by Ben Johnson, like, uh, like file it now. 5:16 The rest of that game got rougher and rougher and rougher for the Bears, and the exact hap- opposite happened for the, for the Vikings. 5:23 Yeah, it really did, and just watching Caleb Williams in that first half, it looked like everything that you thought that it would look like in a best case scenario of Ben Johnson fixing him. 5:32 The arm talent, throwing on the run. I believe it was to Rome Odunze, uh, going out of bounds, just an absolute dart for, for a completion to move the chains. 5:41 Couple of, you know, the, the arm angles on some of the throws, it's like, how did he do that? 5:45 Some of the innovative concepts, like the screen pass to DeAndre Swift five yards behind the line of scrimmage that creates so much space it becomes a 15-yard gain. 5:54 Everything was going the Bears' way-Caleb finishes 11 of 25. Right. 5:59 And y- you look at what the, the Vikings defense of Brian Flores did in that second half, they held the Bears to 63 yards in the fourth quarter, one of seven on third down in the second half. 6:11 A- and my question is not just the Chicago Bears and Caleb Williams issue, but if you're playing the Minnesota Vikings and that defense plays at that level, even for just a half of football, how do you beat that? 6:23 Well, y- you have to beat it the way teams like the Lions beat it last year. 6:26 It's like you run the ball effectively on them, which for a while the Bears were doing, um, and then you sort of take away the ability for Flores to do all these blitzes. 6:34 And then, you know, you h- prefer to have this veteran quarterback who's gonna go out there and say, "Okay, I really don't know what this blitz is doing here, but if those linebackers are trying to get back, uh, y- you know, into zones from where they're standing, I can probably d- drop the ball in there." 6:48 So there's ways of attacking that. The thing with Williams, and I think his decision-making did improve, especially early in the game you saw that, maybe... 6:55 I don't know, that late drive was mostly penalties, but whatever. Um, his accuracy, like I, I looked at it and it, it looked like he was trying to do, like, 11 things in his brain, right? 7:05 And he's tr- then he's trying to throw a retreat team pass in the flat and it's going low and away, away from his receiver. 7:09 And some of those passes were like, I c- I can't believe the lack of accuracy from this quarterback, and it's like, oh, we just fixed this one issue where he didn't make good decisions, held the ball too long. 7:18 Now you have to turn around and, and, and, and fix that other issue. You're ta- you're talking about the Vikings, though. It's like the defense is gonna be really good. Yep. 7:28 And McCarthy, like you could see, like, uh, early in this game, it's like delay of game penalties. Right. Right. 7:35 A- [laughs] and at the end, now part of it at the end is it's, you're starting to play with the lead, uh, in the, in the fourth quarter. 7:40 You keep getting the ball around midfield, all these things help, but the delay of game penalties disappear, the sacks disappear. He, he, he throws the dumb interception, comes back. 7:49 He starts to look a little more like that guy by the end of the game. For sure, and I think that that pick six, which was just an ugly throw, a telegraphed throw- [laughs]... 7:58 you, you could tell 10,000 miles away where that ball was going, and the Bears made him pay, right, made him pay with the pick six. It felt like that was the light switch moment for JJ McCarthy in that game. 8:08 You saw on the sidelines, goes over, talks to his offensive linemen, and basically said, "Hey, that's on me. We'll get back in, then we'll get back into this." 8:16 But you look at what he did, only 143 passing yards and two passing touchdowns. He ran for another score. Mm-hmm. 8:23 It, it looked like that second half was the formula for what they want to do, run the football well with Jordan Mason, mixing in some Aaron Jones, get McCarthy running, you know, using his mobility, setting up the big plays downfield to Justin Jefferson, um, who had the, the touchdown catch in that game. 8:40 It, it feels like there was a formula there, that when the defense is at its best, you know, limiting the opportunities and the damage done by the opposing offense, let JJ, and I'm, I, I promise I'm not using this term in a derogatory manner, but manage the game- Yeah... 8:53 limit the mistakes, make high-percentage throws, hit Jefferson on big plays when they present itself. 8:58 It just seems like that's how they're going to play complimentary football, and that's their formula to try and win this season. 9:04 Gosh, if only there was a template for the Vikings protecting a quarterback who might not be able to do everything you want from your starting quarterback. 9:12 Oh, wait, last year, Sam Darnold, they did the same thing, and you see the same tactics. In fact, you, they use them with Kirk Cousins. It's what O'Connell likes to run. Lots of play action, lots of rollout, uh, plays. 9:22 They wanna keep that balance. There's a conservatism, where it's third and long, they were not asking him to convert third and longs later in the game. 9:28 He didn't have to, because they were usually in third and short playing with the lead. If you can do those things, you can nurture McCarthy. Now, McCarthy's still gonna make mistakes. 9:36 You're not gonna let him do a he's arrived thing, but if you can do Darnold-ish things, then you've got another one of these Vikings teams, Justin Jefferson, Flores' defense, they're gonna go out there, they're gonna win all the games they're supposed to win, and that's gonna pull them into this 10-win or plus situation. 9:52 For sure, when you think back to when McCarthy was drafted, you know, the last year, coming out of the combine, he was the darling of Indianapolis, and you had executives and coaches raving about his ability to diagnose things on the board, and that his leadership skills shine through. 10:05 The big question was, what is he as a passer? Because he only threw for 146 yards and two scores in the national championship win against Washington, which was one of the highlights of his college career. 10:14 He was never asked to be the guy who carries a football team, carries a passing game. 10:20 But within the cocoon of Kevin O'Connell and a, a, a quarterback-friendly system, with Justin Jefferson, as you mentioned, the Sam Darnold template, the Sam Darn- Darnold blueprint, if you can raise the ceiling a bit, now all of a sudden you're talking about this being a playoff caliber team, not just this year, but, but as long as the window is open with JJ, if he continues to build on where he is with the floor being Sam Darnold level production and skills. 10:44 And in the meantime, I'm excited about this turning into a little two-man game within the game- Yes... because that was an exciting game. It was compelling, it was full of drama. 10:52 Both these quarterbacks have a lot of room to grow. Um- Yeah... 10:55 I'm glad that Caleb didn't go out there and, like, throw two interceptions and, you know, uh, the two, and go like this, uh, to, to Johnson when he tried to talk to him, or all the... 11:04 After we read Ty Dunne's, uh, uh, ar- article earlier in the week, we're ready for anything in that respect. It's like no, he's more with the program. There are still things to iron out. 11:12 McCarthy is clearly with the program. There's things to iron out there. It's gonna be fun watching these two as sort of an undercard to Love and Goff and all the things going on in the NFC North. 11:21 Th- there's more of a Jekyll and Hyde temperament to Caleb Williams, in my opinion, than any quarterback that I can remember in, in recent memory, because if you get first half Caleb Williams, if you get what the Bears got in the first half- Mm-hmm... 11:33 they're a 9, 10 win team because of the, the supporting cast, because of the weapons. But if you get the Caleb Williams who misses D.J. 11:40 Moore that badly on a fourth down, a gotta have it throw, if you get the Caleb Williams who's overthrowing guys with a clean pocket, if you get the Caleb Williams with the accuras- accuracy issues that when you watched last season you could excuse because he was a rookie and poor coaching with Matt Eberflus and a, a terrible offensive scheme and all of those things, but if the accuracy issues are just who he is-I, I don't know the patience that Ben Johnson is going to have beyond this year. 12:06 I know we're getting way out of, ahead of ourselves- Yeah... and the narrative forces of it being let out of the barn- Right... 12:11 but it just seems like a lot of the issues that plagued him as a rookie reared their ugly heads as soon as the control of that first half got out of their grasp. And that's it. 12:21 What happens later in the game, what happens when everything hasn't been scripted up. Don't forget, he had a Wentz ball, uh, where it's like third and long, he starts doing his scrambling. 12:29 When he's obviously going down, he tries to shotput the ball, and they get a, a grounding penalty. It leads to a missed- Yeah... field goal there. 12:35 But, like, those mistakes are gonna have to get, like, eradicated, like, pretty much down to zero for a quarterback. Like, maybe your Patrick Mahomeses can do it. 12:44 It's like, well, you do so many other things that we trust you on this level. Y- you don't have that margin for error when you're Caleb Williams. That's another thing that has to go away. A- again, in the meantime, 12:55 they led 17 to six. Yeah. And, and Ben Johnson said it. This was on a lot of people on that team. There were s- tons of penalties, missed field goals, um, it wasn't blocked up as well as it could have been. 13:06 Uh, some of the, some of the play calling we, the... I'm so sick of coach play calling after this, this Sunday Nighter. We'll get, we'll get into that. 13:13 Uh, it was suspect, but there's a lot of room for growth there for the Bears and for Johnson. For sure. 13:19 When you talk about not blocking up well, this, this is where you transition to what we saw in the nation's capital in Commanders versus Giants, where you and I have talked about this before on the podcast. My final 13:30 long form enterprise story that I wrote for nj.com before leaving my role as a Giants beat reporter way back in 2020- Uh-huh... 13:39 was the Giants inability to build an offensive line, that it had been going on a decade, since 2011, of not being able to build a competent offensive line. Five years later- Yeah... 13:51 week one of the 2025 season, I know Andrew Thomas, your All-Pro tackle, is out. I know that the offensive line is a bit of a patchwork unit. Russell Wilson had to withstand two sacks- Mm-hmm... 14:02 took eight quarterback hits, only 168 passing yards, an average 4.5 yards per passing attempt. Mike, that's just not NFL level quarterback play. Right. 14:13 And yet Brian Daboll, perhaps because of the offensive line woes, has committed to Russell Wilson starting week two against the Dallas Cowboys, came out and, and made that announcement during his day after press availability on Monday. 14:26 Your thoughts on the offensive line in New York and w- whatever lack of job security Russell Wilson has right now, I think that it's wearing very, very thin in East Rutherford. Yeah, there's a lot there. 14:37 One, yeah, again, Thomas was out. I think Hudson had to play at left tackle. Um, they weren't good. [laughs] No. Russell was not helping. 14:46 Wilson was not helping, and I don't think the game plan helped particularly much a- at all. This is a team that was trailing constantly. Part of that was the dink and dunk. 14:54 When W- when Wilson had time, he wasn't getting it done. I'm gonna give you his numbers under pressure. So he was pressured 21 times- Oh, geez... 15:02 in that game per SIS, so that's inexcusable, you can't put that all on the quarterback, et cetera. On those pressures, he went five of 16 for 56 yards. 15:12 Only seven total passes were, of those 16, were considered catchable. So he is throwing the ball away. He is just, 15:21 "Bleh," the ball to nowhere, whether it's to Mebo in the back of the end zone, the backup tackle, or, or, or to whoever. He's not getting it done on his end. 15:29 Offensive line may get better if we ever see Thomas again, which should be soon. Daboll's playing galactic chess. He's playing job preservation chess. That's what he's doing right now. He's... 15:40 He, I think he looks at Dart and says, "This guy's gonna have three or four good games before, like, league figures him out. I wanna time those good games, so it's in my best interest." 15:48 Oh, and maybe the best interest of the Giants, but definitely my best [laughs] interest as a guy who's- Yeah... about to lose his job. I guess the question is, well, what is he waiting for? You mentioned it, the... 15:56 It's not like the, uh, the Cowboys have a pr- mere pass rusher anymore. They don't look like a team that's gonna be really dangerous rushing the passer. 16:02 No, a- and there, there are multiple layers to this onion, and I'll just start out here. 16:06 I- if you're worried about Jaxson Dart not being able to run the offense at an efficient level, look at Russell Wilson's inability under pressure. 16:13 Look at the numbers that you pointed out under pressure from Russell Wilson. You can't get much worse than that, especially with a, a first-round pick who has some mobility. 16:22 You saw it on film at Ole Miss, you saw it during the pre-season, y- you saw an ability to protect the football in the pre-season, albeit against second-string and third-string defenses. 16:31 I, I'm not sure how you lower the floor by playing Jaxson Dart. 16:35 The only reason that I can think of for not playing him week two against the Cowboys, a pedestrian pass rush, is that they are so worried about that offensive line, so worried about Andrew Thomas not being there, that we go back to the narrative that you proposed back in August, that it's a lot easier to go from Russell Wilson to Jaxson Dart than having to go back, let alone if they put Jaxson Dart out there and he gets hurt behind a patchwork offensive line. 17:02 Then you have to go back to 40-plus- Yeah... year old Russell Wilson and say, "Hey, sorry, no hard feelings. Pat you on the back. 17:08 Can you get back out there behind that offensive line that we yanked you because you couldn't play behind, and because the kid got hurt." 17:15 But, but Mike, I, I just don't know how you can get much worse, how much m- less efficient you can get as an offense playing Dart than they are right now with Russell Wilson. Y- I, I, I found this out yesterday. 17:27 Today I learned the Giants haven't scored a touchdown in their last three openers. That's wild. That's wild. That's wild. 17:32 Now, now I, I can almost see at this point it's like you're going into Dallas, maybe we don't give Jaxson Dart his first start in Jerry world. Like, there might be a little bit of a logic protection there. 17:42 Maybe you wait for Andrew Thomas to come back. Um, w- what did we, um... I was on Jared Bell- Oh, we, we have, we have the soft landing. We, we've talked about this. It was, it was the Saints. 17:51 If you look at the schedule, yeah, if you s- at the schedule coming up- Yeah... it sets up at Dallas, Kansas City at home for the home opener, Chargers at home, and then you go to New Orleans against the Saints. 18:01 That, that, that's the soft landing, because after that you have the Eagles coming in, and, you know, obviously you wanna have a warmup before you welcome in the defending Super Bowl champions. 18:12 Uh, i- if you're not gonna start Jaxson Dart in week two, the clock starts to tick pretty quickly if you lose that game a- and you're staring down the barrel at 0 and 4 w- going down to, to New Orleans and the Saints.Right, I feel like the Saints, that is that landing. 18:27 You even have the idea that you could get a lot of fa- Jackson Dart fans from Ole Miss in that stadium, assuming Saints fans aren't running around to go to see the Spencer Rattler experience. 18:36 Conspiracy theory were promises made to Russell Wilson. That he has X amount of games before he- Right... has the chance to play? Right Until, until he gets benched. Right. 18:48 Now, there was all this talk about how, you know, other, who, who has, other quarterbacks wouldn't come there because they said, "Well, if you draft a quarterback, I don't wanna come here," and Russ didn't say that, but that doesn't mean he didn't say something else along the way. 19:00 Right, and, but, but it also to me, I, I wonder what the market was for Russell Wilson based on how it ended in Pittsburgh last year. It, it might've been the, the Giants or the couch, right? Right. 19:10 It, it might have been the Giants or the Carson Wentz backup quarterback carousel. It, it, it may, it might have been that type of situation for, for, for Wilson. 19:19 I, I just look at this offense, I, I look at how inept they were in- Yeah... 19:24 Washington, and I, and I just don't know, if you're, if you're not playing Jackson Dart because you're trying to give the rest of the offense the opportunity to play with a veteran quarterback- Mm-hmm... 19:34 you're trying to make the, the appearance that you're not tanking, that you're not quitting on the season, there's going to come a point where it is going to be impossible to look at a, a Malik Nabers, to look at a Darius Slayton, to look at an Andrew Thomas coming back from an injury and say that Russell Wilson gives this team the best chance to win if the performance has continued to be on the level that we saw on Sunday. 19:59 And the, and our, our colleagues up in New York are already kind of turning the screws to Daboll a little bit. 20:04 He's gonna have, he's already having a hard time f- furallling his way through these, uh, press conferences if he doesn't make some kind of decision. So, yeah, Wilson, Wilson's got to rebound. 20:14 Wilson can't just keep being this guy. No. 20:17 Because it's now been one, two, three full years since Denver of pretty much this guy where you manufacture wins here and there with defense, and then you sort of retroactively say, "Well, Wilson, he's, he threw that one bomb to the bomb catching guy," Nabers in this case, or it would've been Sutton beforehand or whoever. 20:33 Uh, and, and, and that, and then he managed the game where it's like he didn't really manage the game, the defense allowed 13 points, that's how they won. 20:40 Can't keep doing this and, and, and the Giants can't count on their defense to be that good. Oh, I'm, I'm gonna go one more layer of the onion here. 20:48 You used to call, uh, Jacoby Br- crash test Brissett last year- [laughs]... in New England with Drake May sitting on the bench. Yes. 20:55 And eventually, e- event- eventually it just became, uh, too big of an issue to overlook. Yeah. Eventually they had- Yeah... to play Drake May, but that offensive line set Drake May up to fail. 21:05 You saw they, they, when they took Campbell in the first round. Right. They spent some money up front in, in free agency to bolster the offensive line in front of him. 21:13 I do wonder, because the reports came out from Dan Graziano over at ESPN that there was a package of plays- Yeah... for Jackson Dart in the opener in Washington. 21:23 Those plays never materialized, even though the Giants were never really in that game all that competitively. 21:29 I do wonder if Joe Schoen and Brian Daboll, and maybe even John Mara, look at that offensive line and instead of crash test Brissett in New England, i- it's crash dummy Russ- Mm-hmm... 21:42 in East Rutherford, that until that offensive line is competent, until you get Andrew Thomas back, until you have some sort of confidence in Evan Neal that you can dress him at guard after talking him up all summer- Right... 21:54 before making him inactive in week one, until you have confidence in that offensive line, is Russell Wilson the sacrificial lamb until Dart can walk in and, and, and have a chance to run the offense, rather than being the guy that's asked to use his mobility, his athleticism, and his arm talent to mask the issues with the offensive line currently? 22:14 I don't think this offensive line right now, even without Thomas, is as bad as that Patriots line was last year. Wow. 22:22 I think, and I, the s- situation is so exasper- exa- exacerbated, excuse me, by Wilson and the way he's playing right now, and the limits he puts on that offense. 22:32 I, I, I think that this is like a bottom 12 offensive line without Thomas, whereas it was a bottom two with like third stringers already in the game last year. Couple of things on what you said. 22:41 First of all, talking up Evan Neal all summer in 2025, 2024, 2023, 2022, Evan Neal is vaporware, ladies and gentlemen, he's not good at football. 22:51 Uh, number two, if Brian Daboll is using the, um, uh, 2024 Patriots as his, uh, a- as his model, he might wanna ask where that coach is right now. Not cashing their paycheck from Robert Kraft. 23:03 I don't know where Jerod Mayo is, right? I have no idea. Is he on the, on the staff in, in, in LA? I have no idea. Las Vegas? UNC? Don't know. So Brian Daboll, that's your future. 23:14 Yeah, and, and, and you talk about obviously one of the worst losses of the weekend, let's, let's flip the script to one of the most impressive wins, not just of the week, but of the season. 23:25 The 42 to 41 frenetic comeback from Josh Allen and the Buffalo Bills, they come back from 16 down inside of 3:06 to play in the fourth quarter. 23:35 I, I'd like to imagine what it was like at your desk on Sunday night, but it was a living nightmare watching this game because I, I, I had this brilliant narrative constructed about Derrick Henry paving his road to Canton with a performance like this, and all of a sudden the fumble, and then all of a sudden the drive, and then all of a sudden, uh, Josh Allen's heroics late in the game. 23:57 Thrilling to watch. One of the most exciting games you'll see in, in any NFL season, let alone in week one, the perfect nightcap to a thrilling first NFL Sunday. 24:07 Uh, but from our perspective and what we do, if you're trying to get ahead of things and, and, and, and write your story and craft your narrative... 24:13 Hell, I had an NFL scout text me late in that fourth quarter that the Ravens are the team to beat in the NFL, how do you stop this? Well, the Bills found a way. 24:23 The, the, the, the Ravens coughed it up, and the Bills made them pay.28 to three changed me as a person. So that Sunday night, and I, I get very tired on Sunday nights. 24:35 Now, now first of all, in fairness, it's week one, so, like, all my energy and enthusiasm are there, especially for that game. 24:40 I'm not like, "Oh gosh, I, I gotta get up early tomorrow morning and make coffee," or whatever. I, I, I was pumped up. But I was not taking the cheese. 24:48 That Derrick Henry touchdown run to go up two scores or 15 points, I was like, "Maybe." I was like, "Maybe." 24:54 And I wrote a couple paragraphs on the lines of, "Well, Derrick Henry had a phenomenal game," because he had a phenomenal game, then he fumbled- Yeah... and it's like, "Eh," until the fumble. 25:01 You throw that in there, but I, I got to sort of enjoy that game at, on its pure gonzo aesthetic beauty. And then of course we were up until what, 1:15 or whatever- Yes... uh, finishing the thing. But it was phenomenal. 25:16 And, and one of the things I wrote is those two teams are the best teams. Yes. 25:21 And you can't, you, you c- you can't name a team that played in week one, but where based on their week one performance, not their reputation or prior degree, based on week one, oh, they're a real threat to these guys, either of these teams. 25:32 Right. And, and if, if the Ravens play about 30 other teams- Yeah... they're winning that game if they play the way they did on Sunday night by 7 to 10 points. It- Yeah... it's just the, the reality of what they are. 25:44 They're still one of the deepest and most talented teams in football. The Bills, conversely, still have a, a, a, at worst- Mm-hmm... top three quarterback in the NFL, maybe the premier quarterback in the NFL. 25:55 They've done a tremendous job surrounding him with young weapons. Mm. James Cook played a key role in that game. Keon Coleman- Oh, yeah... looks like he's made a step in his second season as a, as a receiver. 26:05 The defense imposed its will late in the game similarly to what Brian Flores and the Vikings were able to do on Monday night. Those are two of the best teams in football. 26:14 The road to the AFC Championship game likely goes through either Baltimore or Buffalo, depending on how the season plays out. Statement win for the Bills, legacy-defining performance from, from Josh Allen. 26:27 Not that he needs one at this stage of his career, not that you can craft a legacy, uh, much more impressively until you get to January or February in a Super Bowl. 26:35 But I, I thought that it, th- those were two of the best teams. They played one of the best games you'll see. Yep. I agree. And now no one's predicting 17 and 0 for the Bills. 26:46 That's, they're not gonna do silly stuff like that, but I wanna do a little thing like threat assessment. Yes. 26:51 If you look at that Bills schedule, you're like, "Oh my God, is this, you know, Alabama's schedule from like 1977 or something like that?" There's very little on it that they have to worry about. 27:01 So obviously somewhere along the way they're gonna trip. You know, there's gonna be a trap game, somebody's gonna give, injury, rush, whatever. We're talking about everybody at the strength they're at now. 27:09 Who are the threats? I'm gonna throw a couple threats at you. 27:11 Before you get to the threats, just a really interesting schedule quirk looking at it, Mike, they have six games against teams that made the playoffs last year. 27:20 Four of them are in Buffalo, and you have the Bengals, who are one of the teams that I'm sure we're going to touch on here, they get Cincinnati in Buffalo. 27:29 So when you talk about how the schedule is set up, not just with the teams they face, but the path, the, i- if they, if they fire on all cylinders, if they stay healthy, I don't know that the schedule makers could have done them many bigger favors n- than that. 27:43 Right, and that's on top of the fact that they're playing in the AFC East, and it's like, well, it looks like the, uh, Patriots may not be quite as good as they seem to be. 27:52 And we're not even gonna talk about the Dolphins. We do not have all day, so I'm gonna just move on from there. So I'm gonna say this. I, I, I wrote it wrong on the thing. 28:00 Is there anyone in the AFC East that we could talk about as a serious threat to the Bills in any way? I'm talking about anything but 6 and 0. You know, there, there's a world where maybe the Jets steal a game. 28:13 I mean, you look at, th- they have the Jets in week 18- Okay... coming off the Eagles game. Okay. [laughs] Season finale. Everything, everything might be wrapped up by then- Right, right... 28:22 so you might be play- might be playing the backups. Sure. It's- Fair, yeah, okay, the Jets beat them in week 18 because that's, they're, they're 16 and, the, the Bills are 16 and one. 28:32 Jets, week two, Jets have a good running game. I'll give you this. The Jets beat the Bills in, uh, the Meadowlands in 2022. I remember. And, and they covered last year. 28:46 They beat them in Buffalo- And it's New York, you're coming off the emotional high of- [laughs]... of, of the comeback against Baltimore. 28:53 I, I'd say it's a look ahead, but you're looking ahead at the, the, the Bill- Yeah... the, the Dolphins and Saints the following two weeks, so you're not looking ahead. Oh, no. No, I, I, I don't think this happens. 29:03 The Jets might cover because I, I love the pluckiness of the defense. Mm. I love that the Jets leaned into what Justin Fields does best against the Steelers. But no, I don't think that they circle the wagons- [laughs]... 29:15 uh, to beat Buffalo in week two. I was really hoping, I, I woke up yesterday morning, ran to Dwi- DraftKings. 29:22 I was hoping to see, like, 10 and a half points and I would've taken the Jets plus 10 and a half, backdoor cover, get a bunch of running plays, you know, final score 31 to 22 or something like that on a late touchdown. 29:33 Not happening, only a seven-point spread. So let's pencil in 6 and 0 or 5 and 1 because of week 18. Yep. No threats there. Chiefs in week nine. Based on what we know right now, not the vibes. 29:46 Uh, but the Bills, I mean, it's in Buffalo, and November 2nd it's gonna be cold, right? It's gonna be cold. Yeah. 29:51 And, um, w- just what I saw in Brazil, the, the Chiefs look about as vulnerable as you can look as a three-time Super Bowl champion. 30:00 Not as vulnerable as they looked in New Orleans, but this is now two games in a row where I don't think that the Chiefs offense is firing on all cylinders. I think you can throw on that secondary a little bit. 30:11 If the game's in Kansas City, I think it goes the other way, but just looking at what we know now and the most recent track record of these two teams, I like the Bills in Buffalo November 2nd. 30:21 And we also have a track record of the Bills being able to take care of their business in the regular season against the Chiefs. Only pauses there is that Rashee Rice I think is back by then. 30:30 Xavier Worthy, now injured, might be back by then. They might be getting the Chiefs kind of rounding into shape. I would call that a moderate threat, but it's not like a Chiefs level threat. Right. Uh, all right. 30:41 Now, Eagles in-Week 17, like December 28th S- yeah, I, I, I think, I mean, a- again, you're going to Buffalo. Mm-hmm. You- it's gonna be cold. Yeah. 30:53 But, I mean- The, the Eagles are, the Eagles are built to, to win in cold weather- Yeah... with Saquon Barkley in the running game. It, it seems like they're really interested in leaning into- Yeah... 31:01 Jalen Hurts' mobility too. The, the Eagles might be the biggest threat to- Yeah... the Bills, and it's also a game that I don't know how much Buffalo is going to care about, because it's an out of conference game. Right. 31:14 They might have everything wrapped up by then. I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say that that's a pretty big threat, uh, for, for the Bills, just because of the way those teams match up. 31:23 But I will say, if the Eagles defense that took the field without Jalen Carter- Yeah... against the Dallas Cowboys, but if they play that way with Jalen Carter in December, the, the Bills will smoke them. 31:36 So what if Jalen Carter spits on Josh Allen, but it's so cold that it freezes on the way, hits Josh Allen in the eye, he's got knocked out of the game, Jalen Hurts is, is suspended, I mean, Jalen Carter is suspended or whatever. 31:50 Anyway, that's probably not a realistic scenario. We're not going to, we're not going to go there. Spitting is bad, and that's why Dak Prescott should not have done it. Um, how about a dark horse candidate? 32:00 Uh, here's a little thing. In weeks 11 to 14, Bucs, Texans, Steelers, Bengals. Now, by, b- before we, f- most of us, uh, in our football brains say, "Well, that's gonna be a three and one," right? 32:13 You, you put, you pencil in three and one just in your brain. But, but who would be, who would the one be, or, or, or, like, who, who's, who's the threat among these guys? 32:21 Yeah, I, I, I think there's a chance you go two-- I think it's three and one, but I think there's a chance you go two and two with the Bucs- Okay... and Joe Burrow's Bengals. Okay. 32:29 Because, you know, Burrow and the Bengals aren't intimidated by, by Buffalo. Right. They aren't intimidated going into Buffalo. They check the box of getting a win early on. 32:39 Uh, defense made enough big plays against Joe Flacco and company. Uh, Ja'Marr Chase had a big catch. I think that the Bengals might be the second-biggest threat, and look out for a sneaky threat in Tampa Bay. 32:51 Baker Mayfield and Mecca Ekbunkah on the same page already. You're probably getting Chris Godwin back by then. You're probably getting Tristan Wirfs back by then. 33:00 You're probably closer to full strength, and, and with a Buccaneers team that is sneaky good, albeit it, it's a tough place to play. 33:08 Uh, but, but I feel like when the Buccaneers are firing on all cylinders, they match up well against, uh, a lot of teams in this league. They can score with the best of them. 33:16 Um, two biggest threats there to me are Cincinnati and Tampa Bay. That, Tampa, i- in Tampa? Does that make s- In Buffalo. In Buffalo. 33:23 Oh, okay, so that, I would swing it the other way sometimes, 'cause, like, all of a sudden you're going down and it's 93 degrees and so- Right... or, like, wait a minute, what's happening? 33:30 They might be- When you sent me the outline, I thought the game was in Tampa, and I'm like, "Oh, the Buccaneers are gonna pull off an upset there." I, I'm not so convinced. 33:36 I still think they're a threat, but I don't think it's as big a threat going into Western New York. 33:40 Yeah, so now we're looking and it, it's like, well, you know, maybe you lose to e- maybe you lose to either the Chiefs or the Bengals the way you're playing right now. 33:48 Um, so your, your home field advantage, there's no real threat to this right now that we can see throughout the playoffs. What about when they face the Ravens again? If it's in Buffalo, I mean, it's- Okay... 34:00 it's a coin flip again. Okay. It, it, it feels like these two teams are built so similarly. You know, they both run the ball extremely well. 34:07 If Derrick Henry doesn't fumble, you know, on, on that play, it, it's a whole different game, and- If... Uh, people forget, the Keon Coleman touchdown was a ricochet off another guy's hands. Right. 34:18 Fourth down, the ball ricochets off Dawson Knox's hands, flutters in the air, through, like, a sea of defenders and lands on Keon Coleman, and that's a touchdown. I was like, that was fourth down. 34:27 That was probably the ballgame, 'cause they're down by, what, uh, uh, nine points or whatever they were down by, uh, at that point. You can run b- all three plays and punt and make them start over. 34:36 So many of plays like that were the coin flip. The coin flips just kept going. Tails, tails, tails for the Ravens, heads, heads, heads for the Be- uh, Bills. 34:43 I think it's a two and a half point line if that's the playoff game in Buffalo. Yeah. Right? 34:47 Because, I mean, you, you have two of the best quarterbacks in the league, you have two loaded defenses with playmakers at all three levels. 34:53 I mean, we talked all summer about what Baltimore did beefing up the, the defensive line with Mike Green, adding Malachi Starks into the secondary. They both play extremely well. 35:03 It's Ed Oliver who's just destroying, uh, the, the Ravens offensive line, making plays in the backfield for the Buffalo Bills. Strength on strength there. 35:13 Both have really dynamic receiving cores with Zay Flowers and DeAndre Hopkins and Rashod Bateman, with Keon Coleman and Khalil Shakir, a good tight end in, in Dawson Knox. 35:23 Like, the, these are just two very similar teams that if you get into a playoff situation, to me, it, it's a pick'em coin flip type of situation a second time around. 35:34 Yeah, and I'm trying to do a look up very quickly right now what the over under right now for the Bills win total is, 'cause think of what we just did here. 35:41 We just basically fast-forwarded, more or less like we fast-forwarded to the Chiefs game and then the Eagles game. That's really what we did- Yeah... 35:47 with- while saying along the way, "Hey, there, here's some tough opponents where you might scam a loss." Like, we, we, we fast-forward to the playoffs, and I think that's appropriate. Listen to this right now. 35:56 If I'm reading this right, Bill- I'm gonna guess 14? It's 12 and a half at minus 115. Wow. Well- Give me the over... take, give me the over. 13 and four? Yeah. 36:08 Like, you, I, like, for me to find four legit, excuse me, five to lose that bet- Right... legit losses on the Bills schedule right now, I cannot find them. Dude, I mean, forget doing the rest of the podcast. 36:19 Just, just go on and, and drop a hundo on that. I, I mean, I would- Do it now. 36:23 I, I'd be doing it right now, but, like, there's a location sensor issue on my computer, which means I have to go to the phone, and then I have to do the two-step verification. 36:29 It's m- make for terrible po- podcasting, so I'm not gonna do it right now, and I'm not putting a hundo on anything, man. I just had to, I had to buy, like, these shark, the, these skunk pellets and stuff like that. 36:39 I'm, I'm, uh, the, this stuff costs money, man. But I might, I might put 10 on it. Subscribe to the Too Deep Zone. 36:45 We gotta replenish the, not just the betting fund for my tenure, but, but, but the skunk repellent batteryAll clear. All quiet on the western front here. I'll put it Alexander Hamilton. 36:58 I'll put Alexander Hamilton on, on the Bills 12 and a half. Yeah, I, I think they're the team to beat, not just in the AFC, but maybe in, in the NFL right now because, uh, w- well, you can't write off the Ravens. 37:10 I'm not ready to write off the Chiefs. But if you match the Bills against both of those teams, th- th- they're gonna be a betting line favorite in both, both match-ups from here on out. Right. Right. 37:20 And the rest of the AFC, I mean, we'll talk a little bit, I think after the break about the rest of the AFC, but it's like, oh, come on. I look to the Houston Texans against the Rams, I'm like, oh, come on. 37:29 A whole off-season to fix your offensive line, this is what it looks like? You're killing me. You're killing me. And that extends out, when I, I don't want to get into the Steelers thing. 37:37 Like yeah, that was, that was fun. That's not gonna be sustainable. The rest of the AFC, just, just, just chop them off right now. 37:43 Right, and you're looking at the Buffalo Bills and where they started, where Brandon Beane started. You, you're taking a team that, uh, went to the AFC title game a year ago. 37:51 You're looking at a team whose foundation is the reigning MVP quarterback. You have, uh, uh, electrifying young receivers who are still developing. 37:59 You have a dominant ground game, and you went out and you tripled down along the defensive line in the NFL draft. You saw it pay off on Sunday night with how they just wanted the line of scrimmage late. 38:11 You're one of the most complete teams, one of the most talented teams, one of the most dominant teams. 38:15 So i- it isn't a stretch to say that what they did this off-season from where they started last year could set them up to springboard. 38:23 And maybe the only enemy is complacency, but I didn't see complacency, certainly not when the chips were down on Sunday night. 38:28 All right, Mike, I'm really excited for our next guest, legendary former Buffalo Bills linebacker, NFL veteran. You can follow him on Instagram, lorenzo_john. He's a co-host of the Applied Pressure podcast on YouTube. 38:42 Lorenzo Alexander joins us. Lorenzo, how you doing, man? I'm doing good, brother. You know, life is good, being busy. 38:47 Uh, you know, I'm, I'm probably more busy than when I was playing, but, uh, it's a good thing, spending time with my kids, my family, and then, you know, I'm finally enjoying watching football. 38:56 It doesn't feel like work anymore for me. I've been away for six years now, so, uh, really enjoyed that Bills-Ravens game the other night, sitting on the couch cheering for the boys. 39:04 Uh, it was fun to watch and see them come back and, uh, finish that game off the way I know they are. 39:09 Speaking of liking football again, what was, what was the experience like for you watching that game with so much investment? What was the w- uh, whirlwind of emotions like? [laughs] It was crazy. It was exhilarating. 39:20 Um, you could see, like, the ebbs and the flows. Having been in football, you know how it, it doesn't come down to a handful of plays, but it comes down to a handful of plays. 39:30 And so when you're looking at it and, uh, you know, we're down by a couple of scores, you're like, "Man, what about that play?" And then at the end of the game, you're like, "Oh, what about those two-point conversions? 39:38 If we would've just kicked the field goal, it'd be a tied game right now already. It wouldn't be as stressful." 39:44 And so it's, you know, playing that, that Monday mor- morning quarterback, you know, i- in real time, just trying to figure out where we could get those extra things, and then you see guys like Ed Oliver, obviously Josh Allen, uh, Coleman, just a, a slew of guys stepping up and making plays, um, right on time and, um, and just showing how they, how great they are. 40:02 And really what Sean McDermott has done is just build them consistency, staying true to you are, the process, and when you play hard and you have great character guys, and guys that can make plays, good things tend to happen. 40:12 So you're not looking at, uh, Derrick Henry's 42-yard touchdown in the fourth quarter and saying, "Oh, this is over." [laughs] You're, you're not thinking that, I mean, right? 40:20 Well, you feel, you feel like that, but because I've been in those rooms with those guys, I'm a former player and I understand how, um, the, the mentality of a competitor is, you never really feel like you're out of it, especially when you got Josh back there, right? 40:33 You just need an opportunity to get the football. It's not like they were stopping us either. And so, uh, that's something from a defender standpoint you don't wanna see. 40:41 We definitely gotta be better gap sound with our corners and, and backing. We have to just tackle a guy and get him down, right? Mm-hmm. We can't allow, uh, an explosive to turn into a TD, and obviously he's a monster. 40:51 It's easier said than done. Um, but that's a team that we're gonna see again, and we can't allow that to happen. I don't know if we can replicate the comeback, right? We can't depend on the comeback. 41:02 We have to s- snuff him out early and devise a plan, which when I was there, we found ways, and I know Sean, um, along with, uh, Bobby, they'll figure out a way, who's the defensive coordinator, figure out a way that's gonna at least slow him down and not be able to put up a, a 40 burger on you. 41:18 Lorenzo, you mentioned Josh Allen in the comeback. The fourth quarter was one of the most impressive performances that I've ever seen from a quarterback. 251 passing yards- Yeah... 41:26 in the final frame, obviously leading them back from 16 down to a win over the final three and a half minutes. What impressed you the most about Josh Allen in those biggest moments of that big game on Sunday? 41:39 He's just really calm. Um, you know, I think a little earlier on in his career, and I think a lot of people talk about this, just being a little too erratic. The, the moment is never too big for him. 41:47 He's always calm under pressure, and he's making the right play. 41:49 And even in that, that period of time, there were some balls where he just kind of threw away or just let the play go away and not try to do too much, which I think is just as important as some of those big plays, those big throws, hitting guys in stride. 42:01 And you know, it's always better to be a little lucky than great when you have Coleman catch the tip ball, and I don't know who he was throwing it to, but it got tipped and Coleman made the play. Um, but Josh is a gamer. 42:10 He's been that since he's been in the league. He'll continue to be that. He just becomes more efficient as he grows and be- and, and more grounded as he matures, and he's... I think we'll see this more often than not. 42:21 And obviously he's a reigning MVP, but I think he'll just be more consistent from week in and week out. Um, one thing I think it did want me, uh, have me wanting more of is, is Keon Coleman, man. 42:32 I, I went out to training camp this year and just seeing how dominant he is, uh, you know, I, you know, I wish they could throw the ball to him almost every single time. 42:39 That's the type of playmaker he is, 'cause good things happen when the ball is in, in, thrown his way. 42:44 When you look at Buffalo as a team, you survive a really big test against one of the deepest rosters in football, but you, you'd mentioned Keon Coleman, you talk about James Cook, you talk about the weapons, you talk about, uh, the talent at all three levels on defense.Are the Bills now the team to beat in the AFC? 42:59 I know we're talking big picture, getting ahead of ourselves a little bit- Yeah... after one week, but it was a big win against the Baltimore Ravens. 43:06 Can you look at the Bills right now and say that they're the team to beat on that side of the bracket? Yeah, I mean, o- of course. 43:12 I mean, and I, and I would always hesitate because we do have the Kansas City Chiefs, and even though they lost, right, they're still, uh, the defending AFC, uh, champions, and, right, and, and, and, and n- nothing is won in week one, right? 43:24 And so it's the totality of the season, but the way the Bills are playing and what they've done before, they, um, w- and I don't want to say they typically lose these games. 43:33 They gotta figure out a way to win these games in the playoffs, in particular against Kansas City. They've done it against Baltimore, right? And so that's what I'm looking at, right? 43:42 'Cause the, the regular season's a regular season. 43:44 I got my, my son, who's 11, and he loves watching football, and he's like, "Daddy, man, outside of, you know, Philly, the Ravens," and I think he mentioned one other team that we played, "man, we gon- we gon be good, right? 43:54 We got this down. It's 13 and 3, but what are we gonna do in the playoffs?" 43:58 [laughs] So he's even aware of that, and in particular against Patrick Mahomes and the, and the, and the Chiefs, when you're in those moments, can we find ways to win like we just did against Baltimore, right? 44:07 We've done it in the regular season multiple times now. Now it's that additional layer of pressure with the playoffs brings in performing there. And so I say yes, right? 44:17 Everything in my body wants to say yes, but the, uh, skeptic and I guess the, the, the mature adult in me says it's still the, the Chiefs and being able to get over that, that hump. 44:28 I, I love the idea of an 11-year-old Bills fan whose father played for the Bills- [laughs]... looking at a game like that and saying, "Well, nothing really matters until we beat the Chiefs in the playoffs. 44:35 Nothing matters." [laughs] You're jaded at 11 years old by this team. It's, it's fascinating and beautiful in its own way. [laughs] Yeah, and when you look at the Chiefs... Go ahead, Lorenzo. No, no, you got it. 44:47 Yeah, I was gonna say, you look at the Chiefs and, you know, the, the performance in the Super Bowl I think raised some alarm bells, right? 44:52 Of what the Eagles did to them defensively, uh, just taking it to Patrick Mahomes without even blitzing. They go down to Brazil, the Chargers take care of business, do enough to win the game. 45:03 As a former player, a former elite defensive player, what are you seeing out of Patrick Mahomes and that Kansas City offense? Because just as somebody who analyzes the game- Yeah... 45:15 writes about the game, talks to people inside the league, it feels like some of that mystique might be gone or, or at least diminishing. Yeah. What are you seeing out of Kansas City right now? 45:25 Yeah, I mean, it's probably some level of that. I mean, they've played a lot of football, you know, over the last six, seven years. A lot more. 45:30 They probably almost have another season, season and a half over a lot of teams, especially ones that aren't making the playoffs. And so that wears on you at some point, right? There's a lot of moving pieces, right? 45:39 You can't necessarily carry in last year this year. Um, everybody's looking to try to knock you off. 45:44 I mean, you are playing in Brazil, which is a big shift, and we know they typically win those games when they're out of the country, but it's still something that this team has to deal with. 45:52 Um, I would say probably the main thing, right, the, the running game, getting that re-solidified and, and what that looks like. 45:58 And I saw a stat today that Pat Mahomes over the last maybe, let's say, three or four years, the shot ball that's normally, like, a 50/50 ball has kind of declined down into the 20s. 46:08 And so I think a lot of that is with the receiver issues that we've seen throughout that time, right? Um, obviously, uh, losing a guy like Tyreek Hill in free agency. Now you have Xavier Worthy and Rice out. 46:18 And so they're working and, and winning in a lot of ways with less than what they had when they, you know, probably were at their height offensively. 46:27 And so I think they gotta figure that out, and knowing Pat Mahomes, right, knowing Travis Kelce, uh, the rest of those guys, and, and really Andy Reid, they'll find out a way to win and get into the playoffs, and hopefully by then they'll be at full strength in their terms, right, as far as having that whole receiver crew and then having that running game. 46:45 Because even when you go back to Andy Reid when he was with Philly, and I faced him when I was in the a- uh, NFC East, they used to run that rock. 46:52 You know, whether it was Westbrook or LeSean McCoy, and they'd have the play action game and take deep shots with McNabb or Vick, um, you know, down, down the field. 47:00 That is, like, their bread and butter and how they really... 'Cause they're really balanced, right? I think people think about Pat Mahomes and they like to spread it around. 47:07 They like to run that rock, too, because of who Andy Reid is and, and where he's, where he came from in this league, and then they like to throw a lot of razzle dazzle around it. 47:14 But it, I think for me it always starts with the running game for them. 47:18 And, and Lorenzo, you know, just bringing it back to the Bills here, obviously they're gonna be in the mix all year, and they, you, you said if they win these games in the regular season, but the roadblock seems to be Kansas City in the postseason. 47:31 If Mark Andrews doesn't drop that two-point conversion ball in the divisional game last year, maybe we talk about that team a little bit differently going into this season. 47:39 Uh, but, you know, you, you've been in meeting rooms, you've been on the field as an elite linebacker in this league, in that building. 47:48 What does Sean McDermott need to do and that defense need to do to get past the Kansas Cities, to get past the Baltimores again, to maybe get past Joe Burrow and the Bengals in the postseason? 47:58 What's the biggest adjustment from here, what we've seen so far this year, for them to get over that hump? Yeah. 48:04 I don't think there's, there's no special thing that you can do in terms of, like, communicate something differently or, "Hey, let's, let's have practice at this time of day," or, "Let's do this special defense." 48:15 It just really comes down to executing in the moment, right? 48:19 And I, a- and when you look at it, each year it's, it's probably has been somebody different who was, who wasn't able to execute at the level needed to beat those teams. 48:29 It's, we talk about that, you know, even, like, on a m- more, even a more of a micro level in game, right? If somebody differently in, in a game jumps offsides, it could be 11 different people, right?... 48:39 cumulatively, you, you are in a very bad spot even though I as the individual only made one m- one mistake. 48:46 And I think that's what it's been, you know, when you look back at the different games, a, a busted coverage or a bad ball or maybe a dropped ball or a missed block, right? 48:54 And it's these little things done by different people, and so they have to figure out collectively to obviously minimize the times that you make mistakes, 'cause we're always chasing a perfect game. 49:05 I think also when those things happen, really be able to be, be the one that comes out on top and not give up the big play like, uh, Derrick Henry did in the fourth quarter, right? Fumbling the ball. 49:15 Not that, let that be the Bills in, in, in, when it comes playoff time. And I think that's really the shift, right? And that's, and that's a lot of things that go into that. 49:23 Some of it's a little bit of luck, you know, getting the right call. 49:26 Uh, so those are things that I guess historically hasn't really [laughs] been in the Bills' favor, and I'm, and I'm talking about stuff that's like, ah, we just need that one thing to happen for us that nobody really can control outside of just doing your job. 49:38 And so that's what I'm looking for. That's really the difference. And not allowing, you know, when you have some of these yu- younger pieces that have come in, not allow the moment to feel bigger than what it is. 49:48 Yes, the history, yes, it's the playoffs, but it's still football, and if you can have that mindset when you go out there, you can play free, you can play fast, 'cause you don't have this additional burden that you're carrying with you. 49:58 So I think that has to be more of the, the sense throughout the week when you go into prepare, man, this is just another game. We've been here. 50:05 Don't allow all the history of what has happened, don't carry that into the game, right? Don't be thinking about that when, when, "Oh, oh, is it gonna happen to us this year?" Yeah, 'cause you thinking about it. 50:16 And so I think that may be the biggest thing. How do you do that mentally, address it, but not allow it to consume you, especially in-game. 50:24 And that's gotta be a challenge year after year after year, when you climb the mountain, don't quite reach the peak, start at the bottom of the mountain again. Yeah. 50:31 [laughs] McDermott's gotta have his work cut out for him, not being overcritical of guys, you know, not sending this message that like it's, it's in fate's hands. 50:38 It's gotta be a, a, a challenge for him to keep everybody motivated when everybody's eyes, even now, like we were talking about- Yeah... is on what's gonna happen on, like January 18th, hypothetically. Right. Right. 50:49 Yeah, a- and I think Sean has done a great job of that, you know, just talking to guys and having been in that, in that room with them. 50:54 He does a good job of balancing things and keeping things in perspective and making sure guys stay hungry and work ethic. And like that process thing is not like... 51:03 I know it probably sounds like a cliche now, but that's like the culture in, in his core of how he goes about business. And I know I kinda brought that up, right? 'Cause the call or a bounce ball, but 51:13 you control most of the game, right? Those are like one-off type plays, and he's gonna definitely, um, always emphasize doing your job, executing at a high level, being accountable, right? 51:23 Putting in the necessary work so that when you go out there, you're prepared, and you can allow your athleticism and who God made you uniquely to go out there and shine it and do plays, right? 51:32 And so that just takes, when you talking about guys that are veterans that have been there, guys to a rookie, that's really hard to do or to get every guy, from the practice squad guy to Josh Allen, to do. 51:43 And that's where the ebbs and flows, and that's why typically teams that have young guys that step up that you're not counting on, that's where you get that extra oomph that you need to take you over the top. 51:53 And so it's gonna be, it's, I think it's gonna come from some of the younger guys on the team that allow this team to get over the top. 'Cause you know Josh is gonna show up. 52:00 Um, you know Knox and Dion and, and Cook and Ed and all the guys that have been in that core, those guys are gonna show up. But what about some of those younger guys, some of those newer pieces? 52:10 What are they gonna do when that moment is there? How are they gonna step up and shine and kinda create their legacy within this Bills culture? It's funny because McDermott is very good at that. 52:20 I think John Harbaugh is very good at that. Yeah. [laughs] Andy Reid is obviously very good at that. Where did Harbaugh and McDerm- McDermott learn it from? Probably from Andy Reid- Yeah... 52:28 from when you were at Washington facing them every week. Right. Right. Yeah, and it's crazy how you see, like the top coaches typically come from the same tree. They do things very similarly- Mm... 52:36 um, obviously with their own twist and flair to their own personalities. 52:39 But it's really cool to see that tree, the different trees in the league, and how, um, typically there's a, a, a right way about going about it, and those guys figure it out together, and there's a couple of 'em in the league right now that makes it fun to watch. 52:51 'Cause I've got, even with the Shanahan tree, right? I got to play with a lot of those guys with the Commanders and see how well most of 'em are doing from, uh, from team to team. 53:00 A- and you mentioned the young guys having to step up. You mentioned being there in training camp. You got some eyes on this roster. You know, f- put on, look into the crystal ball a little bit here. 53:08 Who are one or two young guys that could be the difference-makers- Oh... for Buffalo? Oh, man. I mean, I, I think Keon is still, still young in a lot of ways and still growing. Yeah. 53:18 I think he's gonna be a guy that's gonna still come out, um, a- and do really well. Um, on the defensive side, you caught me. I wish I would've looked at the roster. [laughs] It's okay. 53:27 But, uh, is, what's, what's the young corner's name? Uh, Hairston, but he's hurt right now. Yeah. Yeah. So when he gets back, right, that's a guy that's going to... 53:36 I thought was really well that you saw Trey working with. 53:39 I don't know how serious his knee injury is, is he coming back this year or not, but that was another guy that I liked when I was there with, with them, um, seeing how Trey kinda took him under his wing. 53:48 And I was just watching, um, uh, Pat McAfee's show, right? 53:51 And, and they had Bruce Arians on, and I was with him, and he said as a head coach, most of the time he was looking for young guys, especially rookies, to be able to help them around Thanksgiving time, right? 54:03 You got a time to acclimate, right? That's about halfway through the season. Um, guys start getting nicked up around that time. Your playing time ticks up. 54:11 We start depending on you, but you've become a pro, right, at about that time. You at least see what it looks like. And so around that time you'll start seeing that those guys, probably week 54:22 six, seven, and eight, the guys that start separating themselves that we really didn't think too much about showing up. 54:28 So whether that's special teams, offense, or defense, you'll start seeing those guys take their game to the next level. 54:34 And what's great about the way the Bills do things is they do have a lot of rookies who did not have to play much in week one. 54:39 All these guys like Walker on the defensive line, they can take their time and make their contribution around Thanksgiving. 54:45 They're not being asked to do it here on, you know, September 6th or whatever.Hey, Lorenzo, I know you said that you're coaching your, your son's youth football team, so I wanna take off the former player hat- [laughs]... 54:56 put on the, the head coach/GM hat for a second here. Yeah. You know, you're, you're building a roster from scratch, you're building a defense from scratch. 55:04 Who are one or two linebackers that you're picking around the league- Ooh... to, to be the foundational pieces of your defense? Who are the top linebackers in the sport right now i- in your opinion? 55:14 Man, I mean, there's a lot of great guys out there. I mean, obviously Fred Warner probably is, is at the top. He's been doing it a long time. A guy like Demario Davis has been doing it for a long time. 55:24 My man Matt Milano, um, brings a uniqueness to the game as well. Um, those three are probably the guys I probably see the most and watch the most. 55:33 Um, I'll tell you, a, a, probably a, um, kind of a dark horse that nobody really talks about 'cause he's still young and just got moved to Mike this year is, is, is Mack Wilson. 55:42 He was with the, with, um, uh, the Patriots for a little bit and then came out here. He's a really good football player, plays hard, is versatile, can rush the passer, play off the ball. 55:51 Obviously, that's a lot of in what my roots are, so finding guys like that. Those are probably the guys, 'cause I cover the Cardinals here, that I really like. 55:59 And, and especially him, he's my favorite player outside of Budda Baker on the Cardinals' defense. 56:02 So watching him play, um, violently, lead his team, um, and be impactful is, uh, is what I try to help my young boys, right. 56:10 My, my 11-year-old son, I have a 14-year-old as well, or a 15-year-old that's a freshman in high school. 56:15 Those are the characteristics that I want them to emulate when they're out on the football field and in the community. They playing defense or playing both ways? Well, they play both ways. They're athletes right now. 56:24 I said, "Man, well, I, I don't care where the coach put you. Obviously I'ma put you everywhere because I th- I, I want you to be a football player." Right. And most kids are so young, you know. 56:32 We have this specialization, um, in sports spec- anyway, right, when we just play baseball, football, or basketball. But even within the sport- Mm... of football, "Hey, man, you a receiver at, at 10." "No, you not." 56:43 [laughs] "You need to, you need to move around. You gotta-" They're kids... play tight end, play, you gotta learn how to block, right? Play some receiver, play some fullback. 56:50 You gotta do a little bit of everything and learn how the game is, is, is played so that whenever your position becomes your, your, you know, every down position, you know what the game is. 57:00 And that's what really helped me, and so, um, that's what I do with my kids. And I do the same thing with my son, right, you know. 57:05 It's this big term in, you know, daddy ball, which I kinda hate, but, hey, I'm a daddy and I'm coaching ball, so it's daddy ball where I'm at. But I, I hold my son to a high standard. 57:15 I hold him to the same standard I hold everybody else's kid to as well. And so he's moving around. 57:20 So even like the other day I had him with the, uh, O-line, D-line just working some stuff, and he's a, he's probably my biggest son. My other son was a little bit smaller. 57:28 And so he, he may be a tight end, he may be a tackle, or that type of body. He's like, "Daddy, why am I over here?" I said, " 'Cause you gotta learn how to block, man. You gotta put your hand in dirt, man. 57:37 This is where the game is won and lost at. It's the most important position out here." But you played two- "And so I'm holding you to the same standard. You wanna be a receiver just like everybody? Pat my... 57:45 No, man, put your hand in dirt, baby." You, you played two ways into college, right? You were playing offensive line for a while in college. Am I, do I have that right? Mm-hmm. 57:52 So yeah, so in high school I played everything. Okay. And then in, in college I actually played just defensive tackle. Okay. 57:58 And then early in my career in the league I actually played offensive, defensive tackle, special teams. Started being that guy that was very flexible. 58:06 The thing that's really popular right now, man, I don't know why, you know, guys are getting paid to be flexible. Mm. 58:10 Before, back in the day when I was doing it, it was like the, the sentiment or the, the, the term people used to use was jack of all trades, master of none. Right. But that's not even the complete saying, right? 58:21 They, it goes on, I forget what the last part, but the, the essence of it is being flexible and being valuable in multiple spaces is almost better, could be better than just being a master of that one thing, right? 58:33 Because when Brian Orakpo came in, or we had, um, uh, Ryan Kerrigan came in, they drafted him high and I got bumped. Mm-hmm. Oh man, I'm not starting no more. Oh, well, I can still play special teams. 58:44 Hey, I can still rush the passer. Yeah. I still had a job. 58:46 So it worked out in my favor, and that's why I try to really help young athletes in particular kinda cultivate that flexibility so whenever they become who they are in their, in their, in their position, they still understand how the game is played holistically. 59:01 Lorenzo, this has been a ton of fun. Really appreciate the insight and the analysis. Tell us a little bit about the Applied Pressure podcast on YouTube. We're gonna drop a direct link- Oh... 59:09 to the podcast in the YouTube description of this episode. But people will go and check it out, what can they expect? A, a lot of great things. 59:16 So, um, I think the main thing will be, 'cause my nickname that I got in the NFL is, when I was in Washington, was called the One, One Man Gang, right? And so it's really one man's gang. 59:25 So really talking to the slew of people that have supported me, coached me, mentored me, um, guys that are my, in my peer group, guys that I s- I see and respect that really had an impact in my life and I see having an impact now, right? 59:38 Because it does take a village. And then I would say number two, like, just educating people in, specifically in the youth sports, about what it's really about. It's not about X's and O's and winning games. 59:48 It's about building charactered, um, young people, right? Uses the simulated adversity that football provides to help them be impactful. 'Cause honestly, most people don't play beyond middle school. 59:59 Uh, and that's just the numbers, right? And it, it gets smaller and smaller. And at some point, if you lucky like me and play 15 years, how are you gonna be impactful when you're done, right? 1:00:08 'Cause the game isn't your identity. So those are probably the two main things that I'll be talking about on there, and then dropping some football knowledge as well, getting on the board. 1:00:16 But, uh, it should be really, uh, h- hopefully beneficial, show a lot of great value, um, just educating people around the game and, and, and what I think is the best way to utilize sports specifically in far as developing the next generation of athlete. 1:00:29 He's Lorenzo Alexander, full of insight both on, in life and in football. You can follow him on Instagram at lorenzo_john. Check out the Applied Pressure podcast on YouTube. 1:00:39 You can hit the link below in the description of this episode and of this interview. Lorenzo, man, really appreciate the time. Look forward to talking to you further up the road, my friend. 1:00:47 All right, appreciate you, brother. I'll see you soonMike, how much fun was that? Lorenzo Alexander dropping knowledge on the Bills, guys around the league. 1:00:59 Seems like the type of thing that you wanna make sure you tune into the Applied Pressure podcast to get his thoughts on life. Just a really, really fun conversation. 1:01:06 Yeah, I gotta admit, when, when you said, "Hey, you're a youth sports coach, I want you to change hats," that you're gonna ask for tips for coaching your son, who's two? 1:01:15 I was- [laughs] I thought you were gonna ask for three. Ask for three-year-old football, uh, coaching tips from Lorenzo Alexander. I was waiting for that. Dude, co- come out, come out to my neck of the woods. 1:01:24 Let's throw the football around with my son, because I'm telling you, as a three-year-old, as a lefty, this kid's got an arm. Grab his little ball. 1:01:31 So keep an eye out, with a, with a little baseball, a little, little mini football. He's got, he's got an arm. Something to watch as we, uh, we age out here. 1:01:40 And Lorenzo would advise you, make sure he plays a variety of sports, variety of po- uh, of positions. Uh, if he's a lefty, remember, a left-handed jump shot, useful in basketball. 1:01:49 Left-handed pitchers, first basement, very valuable in baseball. Mamas, don't let your babies grow up to be Tua. You don't wanna have him go through life as a left-handed quarterback. 1:02:00 No, teams don't like to build their- Right... offensive lines around left-handed quarterbacks either. The high school coach is like, "I have to flip my whole pay- playbook over like this. I can't do that." 1:02:09 Mirroring things is hard. Anyway, we got cer- we [laughs] We [laughs] Unnecessary shots at everybody here, unnecessary shots. [laughs] Anyway, we, we got a, we got Circle of Games to look at. Ye- yes, we do. 1:02:20 I'm gonna let you go first, because- I go first... 1:02:22 I have to give a tip of the hat to you, because watching the games on Sunday, I, I, the, the Steelers and the Jets, I had the Commanders and Giants, and I had Red Zone going on the third TV, and I kept coming back to, and Red Zone kept going back to the Jacksonville Jaguars, because of what Travis Etienne did, and because Trevor Lawrence was in the zone, and that defense is playing above its head, albeit against the division rival Panthers. 1:02:46 But, you know, I was impressed. A- and you've been kind of dipping your toes in the Duval waters. Mm-hmm. Had a tip to Tanya on, uh, looking at the Jaguars going into this year a little bit. 1:02:58 A little pro Jacksonville and a little anti Carolina throughout the, uh, off-season, so it was encouraging to see that game be pretty lopsided. 1:03:06 It wasn't even as close as the score, they were kind of just goofing around in the fourth quarter. But I think the, the threat assessed the Jacksonville Jaguars to a degree. 1:03:14 They have one of the easiest schedules in the NFL. 1:03:16 The, the schedule's actually looking easier now, 'cause some of the teams they played, like the Seahawks, went out there and did not look like they're going to be tough down the line. 1:03:23 The Texans don't look like they're gonna be that tough, 'cause their offensive line went poof halfway through the first quarter. 1:03:28 Um, I guess the Bengals, and of course we know who the Bengals are and we've talked about the Bengals, they did not look particularly great. 1:03:35 Okay, now of course it's September, they never look great in September, but, but luckily they're playing the Browns, they're able to just kinda play defense, just wait for the, like, the missed field goals and Flacco implosions, and dropped passes, and interceptions that are kinda, like, 50/50 balls. 1:03:50 This'll be a tougher test. One of these teams, or both of these teams, are gonna be wildcard serious. The Bengals might be more serious, but we don't know where the Jaguars are. 1:03:59 I'm fascinated by this and wanna see who's 2 and 0, 'cause the team that's 2 and 0 is really gonna have an inside track in the wildcard conversation. 1:04:06 And I was leaving the field wide open for the bigger games so that you could have them, so what do you got? Yeah, I'm gonna go here, I'm gonna give you the tired Circle of Game. Tired is Eagles at Chiefs in Arrowhead. 1:04:20 Yeah. The Eagles may be a little bit more banged up than people are letting on. Will Shipley questionable. 1:04:25 You make the trade for Tank Bigsby, which, uh, I think calls into some of the question of the depth behind Saquon Barkley and how they feel there. I was the first to report Ques Watkins, it was a workout participant. 1:04:37 Uh, Eagles kicking the tires on veteran wide receivers. A.J. Brown coming off of just one catch against the Cowboys. 1:04:45 I, I, I've kinda danced around the edges of my concerns about the Chiefs and maybe some of the mystique being gone. That's tired. Wire, an NFC playoff preview, potentially an NFC- Yeah... 1:04:56 championship game preview- Yeah... Thursday night. Yeah. Jayden Daniels, Micah Parsons, Jordan Love- Love it... Von Miller- Love it... Zach Ertz, Tucker Kraft, two up and coming teams in the NFC. 1:05:10 I am circling and all in on Commanders and Packers. Tucker Kraft, it's like one of these things is not like the other. I'm looking forward to that, too. It's gonna be a great Thursday night. 1:05:18 Or that's a good threat assessment type game. By the way, I, I, you know, being, part of being Eagles fandom here in the mid-21st century is like, "Well, we won, but things weren't optimized. 1:05:28 Tank Bigsby, Zadarius Smith, bring them in right now." 1:05:32 Lion- the Lions are like, "Well," like, "we laid a complete egg and we spent the off-season just goofing off and we have no pass rushers behind Aidan Hutc- Hutchinson. Let's let the Eagles take them on." Yeah. 1:05:42 The, the, the, the, that, that's one of those moves, that was a Howie Roseman type move. You, you, you looked at what happened without Jalen Carter and, you know, I wrote about this a little bit. 1:05:50 It, it seemed like you take Jalen Carter out of the equation, that interior pass rush, their weakness on the edge was exposed, right? I mean, you, you let Josh Sweat walk in free agency. 1:06:00 They really didn't get much pressure off the edge. Nolan Smith was okay against the Cowboys, not a pressure machine. You bring in Zadarius Smith, nine and a half sacks last year, veteran presence. 1:06:09 It seemed like there was a game of chicken going on between Brad Holmes and Zadarius Smith. Howie Roseman comes in and says, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. That, that's not going to get it done against Kansas City. 1:06:20 That's not going to get it done against Jayden Daniels. That's not gonna get it done against Jordan Love." 1:06:24 Bring in the veteran pass rusher, upgrade a weakness, big addition, sneaky big addition in my o- opinion for the Eagles. Uh, but if you're the Lions, 1:06:33 Mike, I'm, I, I, I hate to be the narrative guy, but I'm kind of the narrative guy. 1:06:37 I wonder if the window has slammed shut based on what we saw from that defense a- and the fact that they just sat pat all off-season at a pretty big need and a pretty big position. 1:06:47 And I don't know for sure, but there's one thing to say, "Well, it's slammed shut," and there's another thing to see it going downwards, I got my window right here, during the course of the season, and the GM and coach going, "Womp, yep, no, we're not gonna make any of these moves." 1:07:00 Uh, that's great. You, you believe all the stuff about culture and slowly developing and some, and if you're the Bills, you know, sometimes that works 'cause you've had this going for years. You know what? 1:07:11 Make your own luck.Pry your window open, get another guy. It's not, it doesn't always work for the Eagles, but they're always trying. Yeah. 1:07:18 They're always throwing something at the wall, and if you look at the last couple years, it has worked as often as it's worked for anybody except the Chiefs. So maybe you should be taking 1:07:27 your notes from the Eagles rather than taking them from whatever, you know, whatever- Like Brandon Bean did. Brandon Bean saw the Eagles dominate Patrick Mahomes without blitzing in the Super Bowl. 1:07:36 They took three defensive linemen in the first five rounds of the NFL draft. They, they saw a weakness- And grab Bosa. And grab Bosa. Let's just grab Bosa And grab Bosa... on the other side. 1:07:44 Like, Miller didn't work out, let's try a slightly younger version than that. Keep swinging at it, and, uh- Yeah, the, the, the Lions just seem like they're content going down looking. 1:07:53 What do we have coming up on the Two Deep Zone, uh, the rest of the week? Uh, I'm gonna be doing a little stat pack later in the week, but right now you can go check it out. 1:08:00 Talked a little bit, not just McCarthy and Caleb Williams on Monday night, but the, uh, the narrative surrounding them for the last year. 1:08:06 We talked about how Ty- Ty Dunson, you know, Colin Coward, and he, he might be on Face the Nation next week, I'm not sure, with his Caleb Williams expose. Some cool things about McCarthy and his rehab along the way. 1:08:18 A lot, a lot of details there, uh, and come check it out please. What do you got going on? 1:08:23 Yeah, Four Downs packed with insight on Micah Parsons' debut, spoke to an NFL scout, spoke to former Packer legend Ed John Kuhn, their thoughts on what they saw from Micah Parsons' impact on the Green Bay Packers. 1:08:34 Uh, Brian Mitchell on, uh, some of the rookies, uh, making an impact for the, the Washington Commanders. And, uh, Friday of course we have the mail bag. 1:08:42 Readers can submit their questions, I'll ask them to NFL coaches, scouts, executives, get their thoughts and insights on some of the biggest story lines around the NFL. And of course, Four Downs every Monday. 1:08:52 Hope you come check it out. If you're a fan of the podcast, subscribe in the Apple Podcast store, leave us those five star reviews and ratings. We'll read them on the show, they help grow the show. 1:09:01 If you enjoy Mike Tanier's analysis, you enjoy the storytelling, you enjoy the analytical deep dives, make sure you subscribe to the Two Deep Zone on Substack. It is mandatory reading. 1:09:10 You'll be a smarter football fan as a result, and if you enjoy my reporting, the, the conversations, the insights, make sure you subscribe to Between the Hash Marks on Substack as well. Uh, you a lot of fun partner. 1:09:20 I'm already looking forward to, uh, what's in store for week two. Still good out there, still good
