Transcript 0:00 [rock music plays] All right, all right. Welcome back into the Between the Hash Marks podcast, an NFL combine extravaganza. 0:10 As always, I'm Matt Lombardo here in the confines of the home office, and joined by my good friend, my colleague, my mentor, and the purveyor of the Two Deep Zone, Mike Tanier, in the shadow of Prime, in the shadow of the JW Marriott, and the heart of Indianapolis for the combine. 0:28 Michael, how you doing out there? I'm doing great. Greetings from the Indiana Convention Center. 0:33 If I go like this, it's like a, uh, I'm going to the improv to do comedy night, but if I go like this, you can see some street behind me. You didn't warn me this was going to be an extravaganza, though. 0:42 I don't know if I have a, if I have an extravaganza in me. Well, the bullshit meter that you published on the Two Deep Zone was extravagant in its own right- Most definitely... 0:49 and I really enjoy, you know, you cutting through the coach speak and the GM speak to get to what really matters and what the readers are really out for and need to hear and need to read. 1:00 Great stuff on your part this morning with the, the BS meter. Thank you. Thank you very much. So what are we talking about today? Yeah, so of course we have a whole lot on tap. 1:09 I want to get into everything that emerged yesterday at the combine, some of the big storylines from the GMs and the coaches. Okay. A little bit of housekeeping, though, before we get into it. 1:18 If you enjoy the podcast, please subscribe on Apple Podcast, Spotify, check us out on my YouTube channel, which is MattLombardo975. Be sure to subscribe to the Two Deep Zone on Substack. 1:28 You can read me and subscribe to Between the Hash Marks on Substack, and you know, we do appreciate those five-star reviews. We have one to read at the end of the show, but those five-star- [laughs]... 1:37 reviews in the Apple Podcast store, they really help boost the show, raise us up in the algorithm, make us easier to find, and we truly appreciate them. Absolutely. Can't wait to hear the review. It's a good one. 1:48 I, I enjoyed it. Um, uh, but you know, before we get into all that, I do wanna get your lay of the land being out there because this is always, uh, it's my favorite event of the NFL calendar. 1:59 I think it's the most worthwhile from, uh, finding out what's going on inside the league, not only from the podiums, but you pick up little tidbits walking down the street, you overhear things at, at St. 2:10 Elmo's over the famous shrimp cocktail- [laughs]... at the Starbucks in the JW Marriott. It's like scoop city. Mm-hmm. What are you hearing, and what's the vibe out there in Indianapolis right now? 2:21 You know, there's a lot of scuttlebutt or- involving the Matthew Stafford situation, 2:26 and I, I don't, I'm not gonna say anyone knows anything for certain or that anything's even been decided for certain, but there is a little smoke to the fire. 2:34 This sounds to me sort of like what, what you might call f- like a trial separation 2:40 type of th- thing where like y- yeah, you wanna go out and look around at what's out there and see if you're happier and then maybe we can accommodate you, that kind of thing. 2:48 But like I, I've heard a couple of rumors around it, and like most of it boils down to like it's likely that Stafford stays in Los Angeles. 2:57 Like a lot of these trial separations where, you know, you go running back to your spouse [laughs] and you realize, "Oh yeah, there's not supermodels out there waiting to date me," uh, et cetera, like that's how it's gonna go, but that's not 100%, that everyone is interested in exploring this and seeing which way it's gonna go. 3:12 Now you wanna hear, you wanna hear the whopper? Yes, I do. Al- always. Hit me with it. Yeah. Yeah, this is all reporter on reporter scuttlebutt. 3:18 It is not like I was talking to Sean McVay, who is not here, or anything like that. 3:22 But the rumor is one of the reasons why the Rams are willing to do this, besides financial reasons and long-term planning, is that they really, really like Jimmy Garoppolo. Um, w- what? Oh, I'm, I'm sorry. 3:36 I, I thought you were gonna tell me that they really, really like Shedeur Sanders, and they're gonna- Right... 3:41 trade up to get the mobility to drop into Sean McVay's offense, or maybe they think that Sam Darnold can thrive with Sean McVay's system and with those running backs and Kyren Williams. 3:52 I'm sorry, did you say Jimmy Garoppolo? [laughs] I said Jimmy Garoppolo. Now, five years ago, when Kyle Shanahan decided he really, really liked Jimmy Garoppolo, you could kinda see where he's coming from. 4:02 This guy had just gotten out of the Patriots system. And like you say, well, you know, he's learned behind Brady and he, uh, he's mechanically sound and he works my system. 4:11 That was w- uh, that was actually six years ago. Now you've got this injured, broken down, mid-30s journeyman, a step below journeyman type of guy. 4:20 But I think some of these offensive-minded head coaches who almost want an extension of them on the field, like they want that like sort of like Mary Sue character out there who's just running- Right... 4:29 exactly what they tell them to run. I, I, I think that like, like McVay is seeing a little of that. Uh, maybe that's also a smoke screen. 4:36 Maybe the, the, the person I was speaking to got a bill of sale from somebody who wants to float things out there. But that's one of the weird side topics of this. 4:45 I, I can, I can certainly understand how that feels weird hearing that sort of thing about Garoppolo, but this whole situation, Mike, feels weird to me. I, I, I can't... 4:53 Unless, if you're the Rams, unless you're looking at the situation and you're thinking, "We need to tear this thing down to the studs and rebuild," and the FM picks era, hey, it got us a ring, but you know, at the end of the day, you realize you gotta start re- filling the cupboard, which they've done really well in the mid rounds the last couple years. 5:11 But why would you even be shopping a Matthew Stafford? And, and from the rest of the league's standpoint, I touched on this in the column on Monday morning, it really is a, a quarterback shortage this year. 5:24 There aren't- Yes... that many great quarterbacks. Cam Ward is really the only one in this class where you talk to evaluators and they say, "He can be a franchise quarterback." Yeah. 5:32 Outside of Sam Darnold, you're looking at Jacoby Brissett, you're looking at famous Jameis Winston- Yeah... 5:38 you're looking at middling career backup spot starters to fill maybe half a dozen to 10 teams that need quarterbacks. 5:49 So just from the rest of the league's standpoint, I can understand being intrigued and enthralled by getting Matthew Stafford- Right... but why would the Rams even be floating this? 5:57 Well, let's, uh, to connect the dots a little, I think Stafford's compensation this year is 27 million- That's underpriced for a quarterback of his caliber, that he would probably be about a $40 million quarterback. 6:09 I don't know the exact number you'd wanna use there. He is 37, I believe. Yeah. 6:13 So if you try to put an extension together for you, you're extending a 37-year-old quarterback, where you might be extending him into those years where suddenly he kind of falls off the table a little bit. 6:22 And this is a guy who's in his second life, a guy who looked like he was fading, and had kind of a second wind when the shoulder situ- situation got figured out. 6:29 So, you know, the Rams are like, "Well, you, you seem to want more money. We're not in a position to give you the more money right now. Why don't you go out there? 6:37 And if, like, we can get our draft picks in exchange for you- Right... 6:39 and you can get y- whatever you'd be getting three years at, you know, 175 mil, whatever that number turns out to be, maybe we can create a mutually beneficial situation." 6:49 If that happens, and it's r- and it worked for all parties, so again, it's kind of like there's, like, three parties or whatever. 6:55 Everyone has to be happy with this, the trade partner, the Rams, and Stafford, then it could get done. Otherwise, there's a chance they go back to the table and say, "Let's just talk about putting a bonus 7:05 year on your contract as something we can live with to keep you happy and placated." And that's probably, again, that's probably the route they're gonna end up going. 7:12 But they're gonna explore, everybody's exploring avenues. Everybody has options. 7:15 You're right, there's a quarterback shortage, so why doesn't everybody look around and say, "Hey, maybe s- maybe three first round picks for Stafford," 'cause some- somebody goes crazy. Right. Exactly. You know? 7:25 And, and I know just the team that could go crazy. Would that be the Giants? I, I have the team. Giants? Well, you see, I, I hear all this scuttlebutt about the Giants, and I don't think that they're quite ready. 7:35 I, I don't know the upside of putting Matthew Stafford behind that offensive line. Yeah. Yes, you have Malik Nabers. The defense still has a lot, a lot of holes. I'm looking at their crazy neighbors. 7:45 I'm looking at the New York Jets. [laughs] They don't got the money, though. Right? Yeah. A- Aaron Glenn, adult in the room, new era. Mm-hmm. The... 7:52 I, I really think that they, they went down the right path trading for Aaron Rodgers. 7:57 They just chose the wrong guy, that if you get in a veteran competent quarterback with the kind of leadership that Matthew Stafford has, with his track record, with the ability, even at this age, you know, you still have Garrett Wilson over here. 8:10 You still have two dynamic running backs in the backfield alongside him. The offensive line- Yeah... is getting a little bit better. The defense- Yeah... is built to protect leads. The owner is, is crazy. 8:22 The owner is obsessed with going all in whenever he has the chance to go all in and, you know, tossing draft picks and caution into the wind. Why not the New York Jets for Matthew Stafford? 8:31 I, I mentioned that as a move that they should make in the three off-season moves that they need to make series launching the last, in the last week or two. I'm not sure how to make the money work. 8:41 That would be the one sticking point for, how do you make the money work, where you s- you're gonna have a lot of dead money invested in Rodgers, then you're gonna put more money. 8:48 You have to put a big bonus in front of Stafford to, to, to woo him. So that's it. When you start looking at when all the sides and the money work, it starts to get very, very tricky. By the way, 8:58 did you, uh, see as Pro Football Talk just posted the latest Aaron Rodgers rumor? Uh, I can't wait for this. Uh, e- which unregulated Ayahuasca supplement is he going to be endorsing now? 9:11 [laughs] Whichever one that gets him high enough- [laughs]... that he personally, that he personally reached out for the Giants to express interest. [laughs] Wow. 9:23 Can you imagine him on that team in that stadium again for another year, playing behind that line? Well, well what is he thinking? You, you come out and you, you say that, "Oh, they need to want me. 9:35 They need to have a good roster." The, the... I'm sorry, the Giants? [laughs] You have one receiver, and Wan'Dale Robinson's a nice piece, you know? Yeah. But, but the, the Tyrone Tracy is okay. Mm-hmm. 9:48 But that offensive line is still a work in progress, like it's been for 15 years. Right. Right. It, it is... It... I can't believe that... I, I don't know the veracity of this. 9:57 Again, you know, Mike Florio does talk to a lot of people. You know- Right... he talks to a lot, especially when we're here, you know, he, he's got his corner at his restaurant there, et cetera. 10:05 But, like, that just sounds wacky, and it just sounds like everything Rodgers was saying, "Well, I need a winner. It's gotta be a good fit." He, he's thinking like, "I need a paycheck." Yeah. "I want another paycheck. 10:15 I wanna, I wanna do it this way, and I'm gonna go out there, like, and send my own people out to gauge interest." Very, very weird. 10:23 By the way, I mean, I was talking- The day a- the day after Joe Shane says that he's gonna take big swings at quarterback. But, but go ahead. Well, there's your big swing. Yeah. 10:28 Now, I interpreted that to think that he might try to be moving up, and you ta- I talked a little bit about the first overall pick and the Titans. You talked a little bit about that as well, right, in your column? Yeah. 10:39 Uh, you know, just kind of going off of your r- lay of the land yesterday and, and reading between the lines of what Mike Morganti had to say, it, it feels like they're open for business. And- Yeah... 10:50 if you're not gonna take Abdul Carter and condemn him to Miles Garrett's career trajectory, you know, elite all world edge rusher miring in a mediocre roster- Mm... 11:01 if you're not gonna take Cam Ward because you don't love him, load up on draft picks. 11:05 You know, my thought when, when I profiled the Titans a couple weeks ago on what to do in their off-season, try to trade back within the top 10, 11:14 get a first round pick next year, and now you're armed to go up in a stronger draft class to go and get a better franchise quarterback, while still getting one of the top prospects in this year's class. Right. 11:26 Now wouldn't you think the Giants be, like, a logical trade partner for that? Sure, sure would. Sure would, 'cause the Giants are sitting there at number, what are they, number four, number five? It's amazing. 11:36 I can't keep track of this year's top fives, right? Like, by now I should be, I should have this by heart. Yeah. It's like the Titans, and then it's the Browns, and then it's the... See, I already get tripped up. 11:44 I think the, the Giants are fourth. Yes. Yeah, they're, they're, they're fourth in a two quarterback draft. A- and if you're the Giants, go... If you think Cam Ward is the guy... 11:54 And listen, if you're the Giants, if you're Joe Schoen and you're Brian Daboll, you need to come out of this with a quarterback, right? Yeah. This is how you preserve your job. 12:02 This is how you open some sort of window in terms of keeping your job, and the roster is set up with a second-year wide receiver, a second-year running back. You can continue to build the offensive line in free agency. 12:14 Get the quarterback now, and maybe you start showing signs of growth. I, I'm with you. If, if you're the Titans, if you're the Giants, match made in heaven 12:23 Right, and again, it sounds like the Titans are open for business. They recognize the value of this. 12:27 I, I could see a package where the, the Giants take the number four overall pick, and Thibodeaux, and next year's number one, and try to put a little bouquet on that to send it over. 12:38 And then the Titans want to build through, like, the offensive line. The, the Giants have had a bad offensive line for years. Titans are worse right now. Right. 12:45 Titans, I think, have a worse offensive line, even though they have some first-round picks there. They're all, like, guards, [laughs] and they don't have anything at tackle. So I think we're gonna see something. 12:54 We're not gonna see something today, tomorrow, or the next day, but we'll probably be seeing some news come out of, like, around free agency in two weeks, where one of these blockbusters... 13:02 Remember how quickly the, the Bryce j- uh, Bryce Young, um- Yes... Bears- That came toge- Like, that came from, like- That came together in Indy. 13:10 Peter King had the column the Monday after the combine of Ryan Poles holding court in his hotel room, and basically other GMs coming to kiss the ring and, you know, make their best offer. And, and they made the deal. 13:21 Like, a week or two after the combine it came together, but- Right... the deal was structured during this week. Right, right, and that, something like that could be happening now. 13:30 When you've got a team that is signaling that they're open for business, and that first pick is there... And again, it's, like, o- one and a half franchise quarterbacks in the draft, you know? 13:39 Shedeur is, like, a franchise quarterback with a franchise headache, like, like, built into it. Um, and it, and you got Cam Ward. 13:46 Uh, Giants, if you take Cam Ward, you've got this guy who's got, who's pretty clean overall in terms of his background, in terms of his, uh, his tape, in terms of everything else like that. It's kind of surefire. 13:56 The risk level is very, very low. You can sell this even if the team isn't super, super competitive as you're, you know, you're to get him up to speed. Right. 14:06 So there's a lot of reasons why the Giants could take that big swing. 14:10 Yeah, and, and I think it makes a lot of sense, and we- we've talked a lot about the veteran quarterback market, about the incoming quarterback market, but the guys who make a living rushing the passer and getting after the quarterback, I wrote on Monday that Micah Parsons and Myles Garrett have a huge shadow over this combine for very different reasons. 14:29 We'll start- Yeah... with Myles Garrett, Mike. You know, you were at Andrew Berry's podium yesterday, general manager of the Browns, mayor of Indianapolis this week. 14:37 You know, teams basically reaching out, it sounds like, they've had conversations or, or teams have attempted to have conversations about Myles Garrett. 14:45 But you asked me to make a bold prediction after our last podcast, and, and mine- Mm-hmm... was that the Browns won't trade Myles Garrett. 14:54 And I don't know about you, but listening to Berry at the podium on Tuesday, I, I, I'm more convinced the Browns aren't gonna do this, that the Browns are not going to move on from Garrett this off-season. 15:05 Yeah, when, when, when you said that a couple weeks ago, I was a little bit like, I think we're looking at brinksmanship. I think that we're... 15:11 You, you know, Berry was saying something because he had the luxury of saying something, you know, three weeks ago about not trading him. 15:17 This was a shut down the conversation, don't call us, we're not talking about it, we're not, we're not entertaining this in the media, we want this guy to stay, uh, uh, uh, you know, uh, press conference. 15:29 Like, minutes were spent, like, several minutes trying to extract anything about Garrett besides we want him to stay, we don't see any reason why we should try to trade him. 15:39 W- you know, we consider these trade, uh, requests part of the NFL. They happen all the time. So, 15:45 you know, this is another one of those things where it's like, okay, well, then you, you'd better find the financial apology- Right... that he's going to listen to. 15:53 And first of all, he doesn't sound very amenable, but of course everybody's amenable if you pay them enough. And then secondly, it's like, where's this money coming from? 16:00 You have this much already tied up into Scuzzball, and now you're gonna turn around and tie more of it up with Garrett, and even, at an even bigger salary, and, like, how are you gonna pay the other 51 guys? 16:12 Right, a- and this sounds like Myles Garrett is motivated to get out of Cleveland to go chase- Yeah... rings in the twilight of his career. You're not getting- Yeah... 16:19 that opportunity in Cleveland if you go from $25 million a year as Myles Garrett to 36, $37 million- Right... per year, which would make him the highest paid pass rusher in the sport, which, you know- Yeah... 16:31 this is where the Micah Par- Parsons conversation comes into play. 16:35 You know, I, I talked to a couple agents who represent players at, at the very upper echelon of the pass rush position, and I was told flat out by one of those agents that the conversation doesn't start until you get to $37 million annually, which makes Micah Parsons the number one highest paid pass rusher in the league. 16:55 Contract number one has to be the mission. Some of the guys said it's between 30 and 32. I think the number is somewhere in the middle, between 30 and 37. 17:03 But if you're Myles Garrett's representatives, if you're Nicole Lynn, uh, if you're trying to get the financial apology, as you put it, $32 million sounds like the starting point, right? 17:15 Going up $7 million from where they're currently at. 17:18 Yeah, and now that you mention it, that's just another conflating variable for Garrett, 'cause it's like, well, I, I need to be number one, but we don't know what Parsons is gonna make. And there's gon- there's... 17:27 A- anyone who understands this realizes the reality that, like, Jared's just gonna goof off for, like, the entire summer. You're not gonna get clarity on this. You're not gonna- No... 17:34 suddenly two weeks from now say, "Well, Micah is the highest paid defender in the NFL at this amount this year," and you can go match it. They're gonna goof off, and goof off, and goof off. 17:43 So on the one hand, I don't know what that's gonna look like for the Cowboys, and Micah, who's been, s- sounds like he's gonna be patient with it, but, like, you know, patience runs out. 17:53 And then h- then you turn to Myles, and it's like, "Okay, well, let's s- let- why don't we extend you for this much?" It's like, that much might not look good come August. 18:01 So, like, how do you put these puzzle pieces in place, especially if you're the Browns? Right, and if- If you're the Browns, and you say this-... 18:07 you're the Browns, and you're trying to re- the, the, you need picks too, right? Because they're still- Yeah... trying to recoup some of the draft capital from the, uh, the fallout of the Deshaun Watson trade. 18:15 You're still trying to figure out what you're doing at quarterback this year with Watson likely out because of the injury, and life beyond- Yeah... 18:22 Deshaun Watson, because eventually you're gonna, you're gonna have to move on, because 2011, 2015, uh, Deshaun Watson isn't walking through that door again. He's not, right. Those days are over Right. 18:35 Right, you haven't seen a good year from this guy since 2019. Right. Think of how, how long ago 2019 was. Think of how much of your life has gone by. 18:43 For that entire time, Watson was a, a, some kind of criminal element, or he was holding out, or he was on the exemption list, or he was injured, or he was just flat out terrible. 18:52 That part's over, but what's not over is his contract and the dead money that's gonna sit on it for the next couple of years here. 18:58 And, uh, that's why I don't get, like, like for the Browns to be like, "We're gonna turn this into another boondoggle. We're gonna make this a problem." 19:06 This g- guy's upset, make a couple phone calls, get the Lions and Commanders on the phone, get a bunch of first-round picks, make Myles Garrett happy and say it's rebuilding time, or we can put ourselves in the news as the team that always does these things these backwards ways, whose biggest name, face superstar is mad at us. 19:23 I don't see how you justify going this route with this individual. No, I, I totally agree. And if you're Andrew Berry, and if you're the Cleveland Browns, o- open up the books, open up the bidding war. 19:33 I would have taken the complete- Yeah... opposite approach at the podium. W- Myles Garrett is a franchise pillar. He belongs on the Mount Rushmore of the Cleveland Browns organization. 19:42 He's been an upstanding citizen within our locker room and in our community. We want him to have the opportunity to go win- Yeah... a Super Bowl. Send your best offers, open the bidding war. 19:53 Get those two or three first-round picks. Get the, the wide receiver that needs a change of scenery that you think that you can develop. 20:00 And then use some of those picks next year to go and get your quarterback, turning the page from Deshaun Watson, but instead- Yeah... the Cleveland Browns appear primed to Cleveland Brown. 20:10 It, it, it really is the contrast between this and the Stafford conversation, where everybody on the Rams is being, "Well, let's like sort of be mature and prudent about finding a win-win-win solution for everybody, even if it looks like it's, like, cataclysmic from the outside, where you're gonna move a quarterback or whatever." 20:27 The Browns are like, "Let's just make this the biggest problem we can possibly make." Right. 20:30 Let's make this the biggest, weirdest, dumbest, most counterproductive problem we can make, when the solution to it for all sides seems to be, well, we get a trade and we acknowledge that we have to do a rebuild right now because we effed it up again. 20:44 Ex- exactly. 20:45 And you know, one team that's in the midst of rebuilding is the Chicago Bears, and listening to Ryan Poles, the general manager, and Ben Johnson, the head coach, on Tuesday, Mike, it sounds like they're ready to go all in. 20:56 It, it sounds like they realize that they have the third most cap space in the league. Mm-hmm. They realize that they have a quarterback entering the second year of his rookie contract. 21:05 They have the head coach that was coveted among all other head coaches this hiring cycle. They have some nice pieces there. 21:12 It sounds like, when you hear Ben Johnson say things like, "Oh, we wanna be as aggressive as the vision allows us to be, and you know, we want playmakers, but you can also win having 11 players playing the, the right way and the same way and pulling in the right direction," I don't know, it just sounds like Trey Smith, offensive guard, Kansas City, come on down to Chicago. 21:32 [laughs] You know, hey, hey, Cleveland, hey, Andrew Berry, how many first-round picks to, to get- Mm-hmm... Myles Garrett? Bring him to Chicago. 21:39 [laughs] You know, you start talking about some of the top free agent wide receivers, "Oh, Stefon Diggs over here? Hey, we're gonna offer you a blank check. Come to Chicago- Oh... and catch passes from Caleb Williams. 21:48 A- Ashton Jeanty in the draft? We're gonna get a play-making running back to drop alongside Caleb Williams with Rome Odunze and D.J. Moore stretching the field." Am I reading this wrong? 21:59 Am I, am I misreading the room, or the Bears sound like they're ready to throw the chips into the table? I'm sure they're aggressive. I like some of these ideas. 22:06 I like trying to rust Trey Smith away, 'cause the Chiefs don't seem to be able to put the pieces together to keep him. Um, I guess, like, they've been aggressive. Yeah. Haven't they been aggressive? 22:17 Wasn't this year aggressive? Wasn't the pre... You know, and D.J. Moore and Rome Odunze and, and Keenan Allen and, and, and... It's like, uh, yeah, a- and then Montrezl Sweat. 22:26 So, like, I like the idea of doing it, 'cause again, they've got the cap space. They, they weren't a terrible team this year. They, they were competitive for much of the season. 22:35 Um, I just, I'm just not sure what aggressive means [laughs] and, like, how far it's going to get them. And also, by the way, the toughest division, I think, certainly in the NFC. Right. 22:45 Right, I mean, they, they have to figure something out if you're gonna get, overtake the, the Vikings, the Packers, and of course, the Detroit Lions, who probably- Yeah... 22:52 aren't going to be decimated by injuries to the degree that they were this past year. No, it was funny, by the way, the Brad Holmes, like the entire, 23:01 uh, press conference, and his went on for like 25 minutes, like he talked through like two sessions. It was just questions about pass rushers. 23:10 And like, it's like, well, you know, obviously you have one who's phenomenal, who got hurt. Yeah. So there's your one, and then they, they tried like six different things with the two. 23:18 Like Marcus Davenport got hurt, Davenport's backup got hurt. This kid that had like seven sacks, I forget his name, a, a couple years ago, just hasn't really stepped up, like he kind of went backwards. 23:28 Um, they brought in an older guy at the end of the cur- season, and now I'm blanking on who it was they brought, but like he was, it was... 23:34 And, and Brad Holmes was like, "Y- yeah, we, we want, we always want as many pass rushers as possible." Y- you realize they're hard to get, right? You- Yeah... 23:42 it was almost like at one point, like, you know, no one's calling to say, "Hey, we've got another guy just like Aidan Hutchinson. Do you want him?" You know, [laughs] it was, it was- Right... 23:50 you can actually hear Holmes getting a little, uh, frustrated. He's like, "Yeah, we're gonna get as many really good players as... We'd love another edge rusher on the other side." 23:57 Um, the, the Bears are a little bit like that, too, 'cause it's, it's like, "Yeah, we have this, we have this, we have this." They have to get better. Right. Right. [laughs] You know, you, you know, you have to... 24:09 O- Odunze has to develop, and Caleb has to develop, and the defense sort of has to coalesce there. Um, but we'll see. Like you said, they've got money. They got money to spend. They've got money. 24:17 They got a head coach, and they seem to have a quarterback. We're, we're gonna find out. 24:21 I, I think the year two leap for Caleb Williams, first year with Ben Johnson, first year in a full NFL off-season, away from the disastrous two offensive coordinators, two head coach, you know, rookie year they had- I mean, you know, I w- I was overly optimistic about the Bears going into last year, so I don't, don't wanna make that mistake again. 24:40 Mm-hmm. But I do think they're one of the more intriguing situations to watch this off-season to see what kind of pieces they add with the resources they have around Caleb. 24:50 Right, I could see myself getting excited about team, that team with, like, a new blue chip on offense, even if it's a guard, and, like, a new blue chip on defense, and say, "Well, wait a minute, look at the overall talent that there is." 25:00 And again, the coaching stability- Yeah... which was horrible last year. 25:05 It was really horrible for the last two or three years in terms of the instability of the Eberflus, uh, administration, and now they should have something that's gonna work out better. 25:13 For sure, and, and whether we're talking about the Detroit Lions or the Chicago Bears or any number of teams in the NFC, the, the combine, it's, it's about the workouts, it's about the player interviews with the teams, but there's also the undercurrent of the competition committee starting to weigh- Mm... 25:30 what they're going to address this off-season. You had the Green Bay Packers come out and th- they, they proposed the rule banning the tush push, according to The Athletic. 25:38 They're the mys- the mystery team, quote-unquote, that- Mm... proposed that rule. Um, you heard Raheem Morris at the podium talk about how the tush push should be banned. 25:48 Sean McDermott make some comments about how he's not a fan of the rule because of the injury factor, even though I think that maybe his ire stems from Josh Allen not quite figuring out the way to run it as effectively as- Right... 26:01 Jim Caldwell has been able to run it. But- Right... what's your read on this whole situation of the tush push, will it stay and will it... or, or will it go? 26:10 Bunch of unimaginative coaches raising the specter of an injury that we haven't seen any evidence of the injury. I mean, I, I can watch it and look like, oh, that looks like it's an injury waiting to happen. 26:20 Been watching it for three years, the only injuries were on one play by the Giants, and one of them was Bellinger tripping over his own feet on the edge of the play. I, I think it's gonna get banned. 26:32 I think it's gonna get banned, and I guess that's fine, 'cause I lived 51 years of my life without the tush push, and living in Philly, we saw, like, the culmination of that. 26:42 I just think I, I want more imagination, not less, and I hate this mentality of, well, here's something that we don't know what to do about and, like, wasn't taught to us by, like, our dads and our, uh, you know, coaches, so let's just ban it. 26:54 I, I, I don't know if that's the right, that's the right approach. No, a- a- and I'm with you there. 26:58 And, you know, if the NFL has injury data, that X amount of defenders are exponentially more likely to get injured going up against this play- Mm... release the data, you know? Let, let people- Be clear... 27:10 see why it's happening, why it's risky. But I think, Mike, the reality is the Eagles figured out a way to leverage building the best offensive line in football- Mm-hmm... 27:19 pairing it with a 6'1", 223-pound quarterback, and designed a play where they were able to convert- Mm... 39 of 48 tush pushes for either first downs or touchdowns this year on the way to a Super Bowl win, and- Yeah... 27:34 you have teams around the league that are saying, "We, we can't stop this, so the only way to do it is to get rid of it." Right. And I agree with you. I, I, I don't think that that's a way to operate as a league. 27:45 I don't think- Right... that that's a way to operate as opposing teams. Find your own ways to innovate and leverage your personnel in a way that makes you difficult to beat. 27:54 And I'm not just saying this as somebody who, you know, grew up an Eagles fan. I'm not saying this as somebody who still watches a lot of Eagles games. Figure out a way to use your personnel to beat teams in new ways. 28:07 Don't take away or target the ways that other teams are doing it. Did you s- did you say it was 39 out of 48? Y- yes. Y- you know, like, for a conventional sneak, the numbers would probably be, like, 36 out of 48. Right. 28:19 Right. Like, we're talking about like it's some kind of Madden money play or something like that. 28:22 It's, if they just ran the sneak properly, most teams would be getting this, but, you know, like, these coaches are too smart to run the sneak, in- including McDermott f- who, first of all, ran tush pushes during the year, then started doing the, "Well, J- Josh Allen's always going to take two steps to his left and plunge, and that's... 28:38 You know, there's no way anybody's gonna be able to load up when we do the exact same thing every time." So just, just, just, just, just... I don't know. I, it's a, it's... 28:47 [laughs] I, I'm stammering at it because i- it's just exasperating. And I'll tell you this, so there's a couple of guys... You watch Penn State, so you know Penn State's got a tight end who runs- Yep... 28:56 like his own little tush push. Tyler Warren, yep. Tyler Warren. Now, uh, there, uh, we didn't get to interview him today because, like, there was a delay and guys had to go back for, like, extra medicals. 29:07 Um, Ole Miss has a defensive tackle named JJ, I think it's, it's, uh, Pegus. Pegus. 315-pound refrigerator Perry-sized guy who doesn't just run like the sneak, 29:21 but he takes the shotgun snap like he's in wildcat and charges full speed at the line, and sometimes makes spin moves- Right... before he... 29:30 Yeah, so, so, uh, I want you to da- ban the tush push, NFL, and then I want the Eagles to go get this kid JJ from Ole Miss and put him in the backfield. Maybe put Jalen Carter in front of him at fullback. Right. 29:42 And then, and then they can just, they, and they can run a w- a, a Cam Newton quarterback sneak right at you, and we'll see how healthy that is. 29:50 I mean, that sounds wrong but- If you look at teams around the league, what you could wind up doing is take a defensive tackle and in practice dedicate some practice reps to, to taking snaps. I- if you- Yes... 30:00 can take the snap, you can run a quarterback sneak. And whether- Right... 30:03 it's the tush push and pushing guys, what's different in that type of a play versus a 337-pound, you know, defensive tackle taking the snap and quarterback sneaking? What, what, what is the difference there? 30:18 So here, here's the trick. Now, you probably know, you, you sat, you stood enough practice, it is almost unheard of to practice the sneak. Right. Right. 30:26 Teams don't want to practice the sneak because it is heavy contact, heavy hitting. They'll run it at half speed or something like that so everybody knows what sort of gaps it's a... 30:33 And, and, you know, they'll be, like, tapping each other in shells. They don't run, want to run it because it's a heavy duty contact drill. So it's like- That's all sneaks. 30:43 Yeah All sneaks are this thing, so like they probably wouldn't wanna run it too often in practice, but that's the problem with the play. [laughs] You know? It's almost like, well, it's a dangerous play. 30:52 Well, so is every play in football. We, we, we either talk about it- It's because it's a dangerous sport. We've established that a while ago, right? Yeah, we've, we've established it. We've established it, yes. 31:02 Go play it. If you can't stop a play, then get better at coaching. Yeah, no, I, I, I'm with you. 31:08 A- and Mike, you know, before we get out of here, I know that you have a really fun series that you're, you're starting to button up, that this week is a lot of gathering the intel and the information for. 31:18 You teased it in the column, which, you know, I, I, I loved reading a walkthrough on Monday, the kind of behind-the-scenes of how you put your draft coverage together. 31:27 Everybody should go read that out, but, but t- tell me about the Two Deep 96. What is it- Two Deep 96... when is it coming, and wh- when can we expect it? Okay, so, so Two Deep 96, a, a lot of people do scouting reports. 31:37 I'm not doing scouting reports. I'm doing more like profiles. There'll be scouting-type stuff in there. I'm not a scout. I'm d- I, I'm too old to pretend I'm a scout. I can watch film. 31:46 I know a lot of what I'm looking at. 31:48 We're gonna be looking at the guys, looking at them statistically, trying to get them in their own words, try and go back and look at interesting moments from their career and things like that, and I'm doing 96 of them because that's three rounds of the draft. 32:00 Now, it might wind up being 104 of them because there's supplemental picks, but I had to pick a number- Nice... and it's gonna be the Two Deep 96, and, and it's gonna be in March, obviously. 32:11 We're gonna get it out there, uh, and it's gonna be a lot of fun. 32:13 And one of the things that f- that, that allows me to do here is just go up and talk to the kids a little bit, and just get e- anything simple about the... 32:21 Something about them or something about, like, like, the key moments of their career, things like that, to add to these things so that we're not just... 32:29 I, I'm not just out there pretending that I watched 14 games on each of these guys and, like, know everything about where their elbow is supposed to be when they're pass rushing. 32:38 Right, and I think that's what, what's great about the Two Deep zone. 32:40 It's, it's not just the nuts and bolts scouting report analysis that you might get from Pro Football Focus and all those sort of things, but, you know, I, I'm finding out about the, the kid who grew up in Arkansas a- and ate duck and rice, you know? 32:53 [laughs] Like, I'm finding out about the kid who raised wild horses. I'm, I, I'm, I'm- Yes... finding out about the kid who, you know, didn't play football until he was 15 years old and a, a scout- Yes... 33:02 happened to see him. 33:03 Yeah, th- that, that's what I come to the Two Deep zone to read in addition to the, the contextualizing of what happens in games across the league, a- and I think the Two Deep 96 is gonna be a lot of fun. 33:14 Thank you very much, and yeah, the rice and duck thing, that's actually gonna run, I think, on Monday, uh, where you're going to learn all about rice and duck. 33:21 The best part of that, I'm just gonna share this with you and then the listeners right now, is, uh, the young man David Walker from Central Arkansas was starting to talk about... 33:29 He said, "You know, we're, we're the rice and duck capital of the world." Now, first of all, when you say those syllables, rice and duck- Yeah... like, it doesn't necessarily... 33:37 You don't necessarily realize that he's talking about, you know, rice and duck, 'cause he's talking quickly, it's... and he just says that. So like, so I was like, "Rice and duck, what's that?" 33:47 And he's like, "Well, you know, rice, like, the food, and then, like, ducks, like the birds that fly." [laughs] And I'm thinking [laughs] like, "This is, this is great." 33:57 He th- he thinks he's talking to a, a, a, a sundowning, uh, demented old man who wandered up here and doesn't know what rice or ducks are, and he's trying to politely explain it to me, but then he actually went into a little bit more about rice [laughs] 34:11 and about ducks. I'm sorry, I, I, I- [laughs] Are you, are you going to eat-... w- well, that, that- Are you going to eat some rice and duck? Will there be photographic evidence of rice and duck in the column? 34:21 I don't f- I don't think I can get duck anywhere around here without paying, like, $60. Yeah. [laughs] Uh, and I'm not a huge... I've had duck. I'm not a huge duck eater, 34:30 um, but may- I might, uh, grab some old Scrooge McDuck, uh, cartoons and put them in the, in the [laughs] in the- Good one... if not, we'll get a little... You know, okay, Huey, Dewey, and Louis will do the whole thing. 34:41 That's awesome. If y'all find... See if I can find them eating rice somewhere in, in Duck Tales. [laughs] Can't wait to check it out. It will be a duck blurb. Yeah, it's- Can't wait to check it out. 34:51 Uh, before we get out of here, five-star review time on Apple Podcasts- Yes... from, uh, SM Larson MSU. 35:01 So SM Larson SMU checks in, five stars, "Matt and Mike provide solid analysis and offer granular insights seldom heard on national football podcasts. Mandatory for NFC East and NFL fanatics." That's phenomenal. Granular. 35:17 Yeah, phenomenal. We get- we're, we're getting granular. So it was MSU at the end. You think it's a Michigan State guy? Could be. Could be. Well, I'm saying- SM Larson SMU M- SMU or MSU? MSU, MSU, Michigan State. MSU. 35:32 Yeah. So maybe he's a M- well, well, well, go Spartans, if that's accurate. If, if- Yeah, and go Li- and go Lions. I'm sure he's a Lions fan. 35:39 A, a substantial portion, a peek behind the curtain, Mike, a substantial portion of Between the Hash Marks subscribers hail from the great state of Michigan. That's phenomenal. 35:49 I guess because, uh, w- we were so, um, uh, up on them- Yeah... up until the time that everyone stopped being up on them, including themselves. Yes, sir. Hey, what do we have coming up on Two Deep Zone? 36:00 What's, what's next out of, out of the, the Combine? Uh, end of the week or, uh, actually it will be Monday, will be the 40 Awards, in which we, uh, do the Oscars of the, uh, uh, of the, uh, Combine. 36:12 And then, you know, I gotta work on this 96, so there'll be something along the way, but like you, both of us, we're gonna be in free agency preparation mode, and speaking of which, what do you got? 36:22 You're, you're still doing... You're going team by team right now, right? I'm go- I'm going team by team. 36:26 When you wake up and listen to this tomorrow, on Thursday, it will be, uh, how the New Orleans Saints walk through salary cap hell. Then we have- But-... 36:34 the Chicago Bears coming down the pike, which I cannot wait to, to lean into that one. That's good. Uh, 36:40 d- weighing the viability of adding on a free agency preview series, uh, for the first week of March on top of the team by team previews. We'll, we'll, we'll, we'll see how ambitious I can get. 36:51 You do not need sleep or any time with your children. Help me real quick, though. How will the Saints navigate- Walk through salary cap hell- Well, you have-... 36:59 I'm burning cold You have to figure out a way to, to wait to trade Derek Carr until after June 1. [laughs] So if you can do that, if you can do that, you're freeing up $40 million. 37:11 They're $52 million over the cap, but, uh, Kate- Kat Terrell of ESPN did a tremendous off-season primer, um, a- and she pointed out that there are six players over the age of 30, that if they move on from all six, get rid of them all, you're freeing up $140 million in cap space. 37:31 So take a hatchet and then trade Derek Carr. Those six are Carr, Taysom Hill, Cameron Jordan, Demario Davis, and probably Danny Badger. Danny Badger. 37:41 Which means they're the six best, that's the six best guys on the team. Gotta rebuild. [laughs] Tear, tear it down, tear it down to the studs. What else are you going to do? You're $52 million over the cap. 37:52 You can only- Oh my God... move money so far so many times. I think I led with it. You can only quick- kick the can down the road until it hits the wall of consequences, and here you are- [laughs]... 38:01 you've reached the wall if you're the Saints. Sometimes you kick the can and sometimes the can kicks you. I love it. Oh my God. He's Mike Tanier. He's in, uh, Indianapolis. 38:10 Make sure you follow him on BlueSky @MikeTanier. You can follow me on BlueSky @MattLombardo, or I'm on Threads @MattLombardoNFL. Subscribe to The Two Deep Zone on Substack. 38:23 Subscribe to the Between the Hash Marks on Substack and check us out on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, all those fun places. Mike, make sure that you have a quality beer for me while you're out there, please. 38:35 I am making arrangements. I will not be able to go to the Sun King meetup because the schedule did not work out. 38:40 But Steve from Sun King is gonna find me and Doug Farrar and a couple others, and we're going to have a quality beverage tomorrow night. Cannot wait. Enjoy the Combine, and Mike, we'll talk to you next week. 38:53 Take care, man.
