Transcript 0:00 [rock music] All right, all right. Welcome on into the Between the Hash Marks podcast. 0:07 As always, I'm Matt Lombardo, joined by my friend, colleague, and mentor, and the purveyor of Mike Tanier's Too Deep Zone, Mike Tanier, after a wild Separation Statement Sunday across the NFL. 0:19 Mike, what's going on, my friend? Not much. We had a little false start there. I'm hungry for pad Thai for some reason- [laughs]... and I don't know why, but, uh, also, also hungry for some, uh, NFL talk. 0:30 Absolutely, and a lot to get into. A little bit of housekeeping, first of all. If you enjoy the podcast, please go ahead and subscribe in the Apple Podcast store, Spotify. 0:38 You can check it out on my YouTube channel, @MattLombardo975. But if you do listen on Apple Podcast, please do us a favor. Subscribe, leave us a five-star rating, and a review. 0:48 Those five-star ratings and reviews really help grow the show. They boost us in the algorithm, make us easier to find, and help us track down some more guests to get on. 0:56 And best of all, we'll read those reviews on the show. Whether you rip us and still leave us the five stars or tell us what you love, we'll read them nonetheless. Yes, absolutely. 1:05 If you say, "Boy, that intro is corny 'cause it sounded like Tanier got confused halfway through and said, 'I'm hungry for NFL talk,' and, like, very dad jokey and, and terrible transition," leave that in a review. 1:16 We crave attention. Yes. It's an attention economy, and we crave it like oxygen. Yes, we do, and we'll read it and give you the attention in return. 1:23 And of course, if you enjoy the analysis and the jokes and the insight from Mike Tanier, go ahead and subscribe to The Too Deep Zone on Substack. 1:29 And if you're a fan of my analysis, insight, insider reporting, and all of those things, you can find me on Substack as well at Between the Hash Marks. 1:37 And, Mike, you alluded to it, week four, you know, the, the big games that happened around the league, and diving right into it, maybe one of the bigger games we've had all season long last night happened on Monday in Detroit, in the Motor City. 1:52 The Lions make a, a real statement- Yeah... 1:54 taking down the previously unbeaten Seahawks 42 to 29 in a game that really embodied Dan Campbell's Marauders on Lake Michigan, as I'm going to take to calling them from here on out. 2:05 The Marauders on Lake Michigan, very aggressive, a little over-aggressive from time to time, maybe cause problems for themselves, but it's one of those games where if you look at it statistically, it looks close. 2:15 When you were watching it, it was always just two scores away. It was li- it was like the Lions are in danger of lapping the Seahawks, but the Seahawks are just keeping up. 2:23 Penalty here, penalty there, maybe a lapse, and that keeps the Seahawks in the game. 2:26 But Lions, sitting at three and one, you know, in a division where, in a, in a conference, I should say, where the other contenders are struggling a little bit, they look rock solid. 2:36 They really do, and even when there was a little bit of a stretch in that third quarter where you thought, "Here we go again with this team," after they coughed up the lead a couple- Yeah... 2:44 weeks ago to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, and after they fell, um, you had to go to overtime to take down the Rams in the opener, y- you have Amon-Ra St. Brown make a big play. 2:54 You, you have the Detroit special to really spark things- Yeah... and turn it around, and then it was just off to the races from there. 3:00 And I look at the Lions, and I think they're still the team to beat in that division, but it's no longer their division to lose because we have a two-horse race at the top with the Vikings, who I know you weren't ready to take them seriously during Sam-tember. 3:15 Well, September is over, but the endless Sam-tember in Minneapolis might be rolling on here. There will not be an endless Sam-tember. Do not wish that on anyone. Do not wish it on Green Bay, and do not wish that on fans. 3:27 But I, I'm, so I'm less skeptical than I was last week, less skeptical last week than I was the week before about the Sam Darnold-led Minnesota Vikings, but that doesn't mean I'm ready to embrace them at this level. 3:38 I still think the Lions are the team to beat in this division. I got a couple of reasons why, including a little bit of a stat reason to back it up, but you might have a dissenting opinion. 3:45 I know you wrote a little bit about the Vikings. You talked to some ex-Vikings about this team. Yeah. 3:49 You know, just kind of diving into what is powering this because, obviously, this is a completely different Sam Darnold than we've seen at any point in his career. 3:59 A- and for the past five years or so, Darnold was kind of not only a cautionary tale, but a b- bit of a punchline as a former number three overall pick who became a, a, a woebegone traveling veteran quarterback, but here you land with Kevin O'Connell. 4:13 You have one of the more electrifying receiving duos in the entire sport with Justin Jefferson and Jordan Addison, who Addison comes back off the ankle and catches two touchdown passes. 4:21 So I started thinking, "Who would be good to get a perspective on this?" Mm-hmm. 4:25 So as I'm writing the column on Sunday night for Monday morning, I reached out to Jake Reed, who obviously played on that, uh, 1998 team where he had a resurgent quarterback in Randall Cunningham, and he's alongside two Hall of Famers in Randy Moss and Cris Carter in that receiving corps. 4:41 So, you know, you talk to him, and he said what they can do with the ball in their hands, speaking of Jefferson and Addison- Yeah... is downright electrifying. 4:49 They could take a five-yard catch, turn it into an 80 or 90-yard gain. 4:52 And as he points out, you can't double-team or bracket them because you're gonna leave somebody else open, and that someone else isn't healthy right now in T.J. Hockenson, the tight end. 5:00 But, you know, he feels like the Vikings have a chance to be really balanced, and I tend to agree with that based on what Aaron Jones did in Green Bay as well. That's it. Aaron Jones adds that ev- extra element. 5:10 They did not have that in the backfield last year. They didn't have that until, b- since Davin- Dalvin Cook started to fall off a little bit. 5:17 I'm glad he said that because a lot of what we perceive as great quarterback play tends o- tends to be, end up being YAC or something YAC related, um, and there's a little bit of that. 5:25 And he mentioned what they can do with the ball in their hands. 5:28 I would add how they can get to, the ball into their hands, including Jefferson, who is making difficult catches, over-the-shoulder catches, bobbling catches that he's bringing down along the sidelines. 5:38 He has been bringing a lot of that all season long. He's been playing at an MVP level.Dude, the catch that he made on Sunday afternoon where Keison's back was turned to the football- Yeah... 5:48 somehow Darnold fit the ball right between Keison's shoulder and one, like, hand of Jefferson, who pulled it in. 5:56 It was one of the more impressive catches you'll see, and if th- they're doing that on a week-to-week basis, whether it's getting behind the defense on a broken coverage, whether it's, as Jake Reed points out, taking a 10-yard pass, turning it into a 90-yard gain, or a circus catch- Yeah... 6:09 you're helping your quarterback. I- it's that are you lucky or you're good, and it seems like Jefferson in particular right now is using his talent to create lucky, fortuitous situations. 6:19 That's a great example of a play where no one's talking about what a fit by Darnold, where he's putting it in this corner pocket along the sidelines, o- you know, wi- with a defender right there. 6:28 And, you know, 90% of the receivers in the NFL, they wouldn't make a significant play or get, like, a finger around on it. 6:34 And, you know, Jefferson and prime new C- Hopkins and, like, two or three other people, they make that play, and when we're talking about the play of the quarterback there. 6:41 So that's something he, he didn't have in New York with the Jets, certainly. He, he had it at times in Carolina, but the Carolina Panthers never had a complete team around him. 6:50 Part of the punchline with Darnold is that the New York media, media came after him. Yes. I understand that, like, the punchline with Darnold was the New York media. 6:57 The punchline with Baker is that a lot of people didn't like him coming out of college, 'cause he was a little bit of a D-bag in college, and he kind of came in and had a, a chip on his shoulder, uh, uh, coming out and was arguing with the Cleveland media. 7:08 Probably some, um... both sides on that one. [laughs] But, but, you know. Yeah, sure. Right, right. Certainly there, there were some people who were acting gross. Uh, but, like, y- you know, that caused all of that. 7:19 Darnold and Carolina, especially the second time, all bets... people weren't paying attention anymore, pretty competent. He just didn't have this defense. He didn't have these receivers. 7:27 He had some okay receivers, so you didn't get this kind of hype around him. There's also another ingredient at play here when it comes to the Sam Darnold turnaround, the Sam Darnold renaissance. 7:36 You've now, in the span of 14 months or so, had him in the building with Kyle Shanahan absorbing that offense, in meetings, y- you know, as part of that system, as part of that scheme, picking the brain of one of the better offensive minds in the league, and he lands in Minnesota with Kevin O'Connell, and I reached out to Nate Burleson as well. 7:56 Obviously, he's not on camera during the games, so you, you figure out a point in, like, the third or fourth quarter where he's not going to be on the halftime show. 8:04 And I just said, "Nate, you know, w- what's been the driving force here? What's been the key to this Darnold turnaround?" 8:10 And he said, "You know, we've heard all these years that Kevin O'Connell is the quarterback whisperer, but he's proving that with the relationship with Sam Darnold. 8:18 And one of the most important things a head coach can tell a quarterback is to spread the ball around." 8:22 And even though Justin Jefferson's an elite talent, you have to remember, as Burleson explained, he targeted nine different receivers on Sunday. 8:29 So you spread the ball around, got guys involved, you tested the opposing defense. 8:33 That pick your poison mentality of the offense, that's gonna help him as well, because they can't just key in on Jefferson, can't just take away Addison. 8:41 When you have so many weapons and you're evolving them, it creates options for a quarterback like Sam Darnold, and he's maximizing that right now. 8:48 I still need to see what happens if they ever get sucker-punched early and he has to lead a comeback. He has not trailed at all in the season. Yeah. Trailed very briefly early in one of the games, and that was it. 8:58 I think he has, like, three passes total when trailing. 'Cause again, you're, you, you can distribute the ball and do all that. Was looking a little mortal in the second half. 9:05 Now he had such a high margin for error in the second half of that game, but he used a bunch of it, 'cause- Yeah... he had a interception he, he got, he fumbled along the way. 9:13 Doesn't change the fact that it's impressive. I just, I'm sticking with the Lions as the team to beat. And Packers fans, I haven't forgotten about you, you know, but you're coming off that direct loss to the Vi- Vikings. 9:23 It was not as close as the score. Here's a little stat operating under the radar. Now, I have been doing penalty research, so brace yourself, everybody. I've been in the penalty, in the penalty box all morning. 9:35 The Detroit Lions are minus 122 yards in net penalty differential. In other words, you take their penalties, the other team's penalties, the Lions are minus 122 yards for the season. 9:47 Well, they have Terrion Arnold, who basically is a walking penalty flag. I think he's 122 yards. [laughs] Right, pretty close. He's 120 yards. They've had a lot of holding penalties spread across their offensive line. 9:57 They seem to get called for holding a lot. Remember, holding sometimes negates a big play and turns first down into first and 20 the other way. So the, the Lions have been having a trou- p- trouble with that. 10:08 The Vikings right now, plus 80. That's not a huge plus, but it's been a little bit of advantage. 10:14 That, um, Texans game, while they were gonna beat the Texans pretty handily, uh, no matter what, that 34-7 was caused in part by, like, six penalties in a row by the Texans when they were in scoring position, going from touchdown to out-of-field goal range. 10:26 Like, that kind of thing was happening. So there's these little tilts still in the backdrop. There's some missed field goals against the, uh, the Vikings that the Packers will point out, et cetera. 10:35 Things like that that are going so well for the Vikings, not saying they're super lucky, but lucky and good, and they're not going that way for the Lions. 10:44 So what happens if the penalty luck and things like that averages out? I think the Lions are going to emerge once again as the better team of the two. 10:50 I, I don't disagree, and that's why I still think that the Lions are the favorites in this division. 10:54 And if you're watching this on YouTube, prepare for Mike Tanner's head to just spontaneously combust with, um, what I'm about to lay out here. 11:00 I, [laughs] I think that a driving force behind what the Lions are doing is going to be, and continue to be, the ground game and the running backs and the backfield by committee. Right. 11:10 Because you look at what Jahmyr Gibbs and David Montgomery are doing right now, Montgomery had been the focal point. He had been the lead dog. But they're both now on pace for over 1,000 rushing yards on the season. 11:22 That's only happened four times in the history of the NFL, where a team has had two 1,000-plus yard running backs, and two of those teams, half of them, won the Super Bowl, the 1972 Dolphins and the '76 Steelers. 11:34 So when you can run the ball as effectively as they are right now, and as dangerously as they are right now, when you also have guys on the perimeter like Amon-Ra St. 11:43 Brown, who for my money is a top five to 10 receiver in the league, and [laughs] Jameson Williams, who looks like-The ultimate home run hitter. 11:52 You know, you can beat teams in a multitude of ways on offense before we even start talking about how dominant and talented that defense is. 11:59 And when you start talking about the running game, of course, that starts with the offensive line of Taylor Decker and Penei Sewell and Kevin Zeitler, and R- and Ragnow was out yesterday, so they bring in Graham Glasgow, uh, and move him to center, and they brought a, uh, somebody else in at guard. 12:13 I cannot pronounce his name. But they have this, they have that depth that they can bring guys in, that they can do a little bit next man up right there, and they have Pro Bowl caliber players on either side. 12:23 They commit to running the ball. Against the Rams in overtime, they committed to running the ball. 12:27 They were having a little trouble with the Cardinals, I remember, and it was like third and eight, and they just ran the ball. Um, and they were running it successfully last night. 12:34 So some teams, the Eagles, seem to have trouble with this as a concept, like maybe we can rely on our running game and our offensive line and our running back. Lions don't have that problem. 12:43 Yeah, and the Lions, on Monday night, Dan Campbell and Ben Johnson just decided, "You know what? Forget it. We're just gonna lean into what we do well, and we're gonna do it. 12:51 We're gonna ram it down your throat until you stop us." And Seattle really didn't have much of an answer for them. Yeah, they- And it looks like this, that was the Jahmyr Gibbs coming out party. Mm. 13:00 And I'll be really interested to see, he now leads the Lions in rushing yards. 13:03 I wanna see how that juxtaposes and moves back and forth as the season progresses, because I think that a guy like Gibbs, who's more versatile and a bigger weapon in the passing game, has the chance to be that top of the backfield back. 13:16 Mm. But when you can roll with two of them, and they're both fresh in the fourth quarter, and it doesn't matter who it is- Right... good luck come December, January, when defenses are a little bit worn down and tired. 13:26 If they have to even leave Ford Field and you're playing out in miserable conditions, in the snow or whatever the case may be, good luck against that battering ram of a backfield. 13:36 It just seems like they have the pieces in place to dictate to teams and win their way. 13:41 I still think, even though they survived last night, they need to find a way to keep the pedal down for four full quarters against quality opponents. I think that's part of it. 13:49 By the way, I talk about worn down, the Seahawks had a lot of defensive line injuries yesterday, so that's a smart game plan. 13:54 Yeah, you're facing a team without Byron Murphy, Leo Williams, so you run it down their throats. You don't get cute, like, say, the Eagles might have tried to do or some of these other teams. So you do it that way. 14:04 I think you gotta rotate those backs, though. You say you wanna keep them fresh. Gibbs is the smaller guy. He's more of the receiver. Rotation, balance, that will work. You're right. 14:13 They, they, they tailed off a little bit against the Cardinals, too, in that game. Obviously, they had, like, a bad half against the Buccaneers and that contributed to the loss. 14:20 Let's [laughs] you wanna go through the other teams in the NFC and say who's had a bad half, a bad quarter, a bad game? Even the 49ers have to turn and say, "Oh yeah, there was, we got some skeletons in our closet." 14:29 Yeah, how about the Philadelphia Eagles, who couldn't manage a single yard of offense in the first quarter in Tampa Bay? S- uh, you know, I'm... [laughs] Like, I get it. Well- You're without A.J. 14:39 Brown, you're without DeVonta Smith, you're without Lane Johnson, maybe most importantly. Yeah. But to out-gain 255 yards to zero at one point in that first half, I just don't know how a team can compete. 14:50 I, I, again, you're without s- a lot of your top weapons- Right... but eventually the quarterback has to elevate you, and you still have an All-Pro running back in Saquon Barkley, who can change a game in a second. 15:01 You have to figure out to manufacture a way to win a game or be competitive, and they just can't right now. Y- you're facing an opponent that had some, has trouble stopping the run. They had just gotten Vita Vea back. 15:11 He didn't seem like he was gonna be 100%. Why don't we, why don't you find out, see how 100% he is. Those first two series, you saw them. 15:19 I think if Barkley got the ball, he got it on second and 10 or second and 12 after a sack or after a penalty. They're trying to throw the ball. They're trying to do this wide open offense. 15:27 No Lane Johnson, uh, two injured receivers, three if you count Brittany Covey, who plays receiver a lot. 15:32 So they're, it is dumb, and this is a team that had a history of saying, "Well, we can just play Crow-Magnon zone read football against you. 15:40 We still have Milota, and we still have a lot of these other guys on the offensive line." They refused to do it. Other side of the ball, that defense, people are, i- i- I don't, you know, Baker Mayfield's Baker Mayfield. 15:50 Uh, we should not be surprised he did this last year. I was- Right. J- Jared Bailey reminded me, you know, he did this, uh, several times for the Browns. He- Yes. 15:58 He was never necessarily bad, they just said, "Screw it, we'd rather, uh, get the, you know, the scumbag in here." 16:03 So, you know, uh, he's just dinking and dunking, and that game, it's like three and out for the Eagles, nine-play methodical drive where every play gains eight yards, 72 yards and you score a touchdown. 16:16 Three and out for the Eagles, nine-play methodical, 10-play methodical drive where you go 75 yards, 7.5 yards on every single play. It was hellacious to watch. 16:24 Thank heavens there was, uh, you know, the, the Steelers-Colts game, and, [laughs] there was stuff to watch, because this, the, the Eagles are on bye. We should not even be talking about them. They're on bye. 16:33 They're licking their wounds right now, but it's, we're, we're based in Greater Philly. We got Eagles gear in the background. 16:38 It's, it's- For sure, and it's a team that I used to cover on a daily basis on the beat, and you just- Yeah... look at what's happening, you know, tackling the Baker Mayfield situation first real quickly here. 16:48 It, it's not just that he's tearing it up and he's found a home in that offense with Liam Coen or Dave Canales, it's that they're s- similar to Sam Darnold, they're spreading the ball around. 16:58 10 different Buccaneers receivers have caught a pass. Every receiver who he's targeted this year has caught a pass from Baker Mayfield. They're playing to his strengths. 17:07 They're also leaning into the running game with Rachaad White and Bucky Irving when they have to. They didn't really have to much against the Eagles because th- they, he was carving up the secondary- Yes... 17:17 so efficiently and proficiently throughout the entire course of the game. 17:20 But, you know, y- if you wanna zero in on the Eagles right now, we talked at great length last week about Doug Pederson potentially being on firing watch, and whether he would be the first coach fired. 17:31 I do wonder if this gets really out of hand, and obviously Nick Sirianni can lean on the injuries to A.J. 17:37 Brown and DeVonta Smith and Lane Johnson, three of the most vital players on that entire roster.But it just feels like this is kind of teetering on the brink for them, because the same issues in the secondary were the same issues that cost them the wild card game and that, you know, backslide down the stretch last year. 17:55 They got away from their identity as a run-first power running offense with Saquon Barkley in the backfield against Tampa Bay. Jalen Hurts has regressed mightily. 18:04 Um, seven turnovers already through this, the first four games of this season, 27 dating back to, uh, last season, so he's kind of backsliding significantly since the Super Bowl year. 18:16 You brought in two veteran coordinators and, and Nick Sirianni's supposed to be the coach of the vibes, but then you have Darius Slay going on X after the game and basically saying, "If you're gonna criticize me, here are all the things that I do well," and then deleting the post. 18:32 It just seems like the vibes are off- Yeah... the clock management is worrisome, and there are some pretty damning trends in the wrong direction for this team right now. 18:42 What's the, what's the lifespan, what's the hot seat of the Nick Sirianni tenure in your opinion right now? Y- see, part of this is, I c- I kind of hate the fire the coach, like, like, like thing i- in general. 18:53 Like, like, there has to be a strata between obvious coach of the year candidate and obviously needs to be fired, and we never seem to find that strata. 19:00 Not you and I, but, like, the world, especially nowadays, where, yeah, it's a two and two team, let's fire the damn coach. Eh, that's, that's a little bit of a hold your horses. Yeah. 19:08 At the same time, you're right, a lot of these trends come from last year. You talk about coach of the vibes and a- all the vibes are, are toxic right now. You talk about Slay. Huff is apparently upset, which is... 19:21 Huff, do something. Do something, Huff. He has as many sacks as you and I do. He has as many sacks as you, you and I do, and he's the one who's ticked off. It's like, dude, I, I, I'm watching you. 19:30 I'm actually watching you on every play. It's not like you're getting triple-teamed most of the time. The vibes are off, so then you say, "Well, what is this head coach doing?" 19:37 Right now I say he was saved by the early bye. Yeah. Oh, I, no doubt. No doubt. Saved by the early bye. If this was a week nine or week 10 bye, there would... 19:46 And this was a, we'll even say, like, a four and five team, there'd be a different thing. 19:50 But, um, for now, you know, it's so early in the season, I'd like to, you know, before we go after him, before we go after who else we're gonna go after who are, like, one and three, two and two, this is a time when you need to show progress. 20:01 Like, this is a bad report card, not failing for the year, and let's think of it that way, and right now it's a bad report card for Nick Sirianni. 20:08 I agree, and another team that's dealing with a lot of adversity, but they seem to overcome whatever is thrown their way, unlike a team like the Eagles, unlike the Miami Dolphins, who we'll touch on in a little bit, it's the Kansas City Chiefs. 20:19 Because already, without Isiah Pacheco, already without Hollywood Brown for at least the regular season, Rashee Rice goes out with a knee injury that there's some speculation it could be a torn ACL. 20:30 The Chiefs and Rice are getting second and third opinions to try to keep him somewhat active. Isn't, isn't this the longest ACL, uh, check in history? 20:39 Yeah, it's almost as if they're trying to leave no stone unturned, no box unchecked to try to get him back on the field given all of the adversity they've had. 20:48 But they're still, Mike, 4 and 0, and they still overcame losing Rashee Rice and coming back from a 10-nothing deficit in the first half in Los Angeles, their home away from home against the Chargers in SoFi Stadium, Arrowhead West. 21:01 But, uh, tell me if I'm wrong here. It just feels like they're walking a high wire- Mm-hmm... 21:06 that if they don't fix the receiving corps, if Brett Veach doesn't act pretty boldly and aggressively here in the next week or two, that 21:15 th- th- they risk kind of, you know, falling to all of these concerns and all of these worries and this mounting a b- a bit of attrition when it comes to injuries. 21:25 Is it me or, or do they seem like they're ripe for a wake-up call a- a- and a really potentially narrative-altering outcome- [laughs]... beginning this week against the Saints given everything they've been up against? 21:39 Well, again, if they lose to the Saints, I believe that's in New Orleans, 21:43 we'll, we'll be on alert, and they'll be a four and one team that lost to a good Saints team that, like, you know, has been playing well early in the season, so that's part of it. I think they're awake. 21:52 I think they realize the sustainability of this, the way it stands with Xavier Worthy as a rookie speedster as, like, the only guy, and Travis Kelce turning 60, uh, next week, uh, that, that, that something has to be done, that they can't just keep going. 22:05 And I don't see this as a thing where it's like, and then the collapse happens, and the Chiefs go seven and 10, and they wonder what happened to their season. 22:13 But this is definitely a situation when you look at how, how the Bills generally play, you look how the Ravens are now playing, that they pulled it together, uh, w- the way the, the Texans are playing when they're not committing 12 false starts a week, um, you could go 11 and six and just get beaten by these teams that look superior because you just don't have the guys. 22:31 These are the teams that you would have beaten if you had any of your receivers. You will get Pacheco back at some point, but that's, he's not, like, at the McCaffrey level where he makes that big a difference. 22:41 So we, we're all turning, and I, we're probably gonna do the thing that we all turn to the trade deadline. Yes. 22:46 And it's funny, because I, I, I put a thing in the, in the, um, outline, and I was talking to Jarrett Bailey. We all make the same list, and right before I went on, like, somebody put the list on Threads. 22:56 And when we all have the same list, it means we're not necessarily, like, doing insider research. It just means we're, like, looking at the rosters, like, "Ooh, ooh, ooh, ooh," and wish casting. 23:04 But we have a list, don't we? We do, and, you know, the reason I'm not too concerned about the Chiefs falling off the, the wire is Patrick Mahomes. Yes. He, he's gonna find a way just as he always finds a way. 23:17 But I think at some point they need to act aggressively to get him another weapon, because we can talk about losing Pacheco. We could talk about Hollywood Brown not being there. 23:27 Rashee Rice was pretty pivotal to what they do. 23:29 He was instrumental in that run down the stretch last year, and he was a big focal point of what that offense was through the first four weeks of this season, and you gotta replace him. 23:39 And, you know, the one name that I knew you threw out there was Tyreek Hill going back to Kansas City.I don't know that I'm ready to make that leap quite yet, only because I, I think that the Miami Dolphins and general manager, Chris Grier, and head coach, Mike McDaniel, I think they pushed the pause button on their entire franchise. 23:59 Yeah. I think that they decided to pause the game while waiting for Tua Tagovailoa to come back, not just for 2024, but for whatever their plans are beyond that, because it starts at quarterback. 24:09 I don't know that they're going to deal away Tyreek Hill, and I certainly don't think if they're going to, that he winds up back in Kansas City, in the AFC, with one of the prohibitive favorites to go to the Super Bowl on that side. 24:22 Right. Uh, now all of that's true. You're right about the pause in particular, where I look at them and say, "What is the message? You just paid Tagovailoa this much money, and then you turn around, make the trade. 24:34 You just extended Jalen Ramsey and you turn around and make the trade." And Tyreek Hill, they just restructured his contract in the off-season, 90 million over the next three seasons. 24:43 Now, I have not, like, done this deep dive into what that looks like day, you know, we- year in, year out, and what the Chiefs would have to take on, but it, that sounds like something, uh, uh, you can't just trade after a month. 24:52 Sure. You can't sign that kind of deal and trade it after a month without the cap implications for everybody being all over the place. 24:57 And I'll throw one more thing in for Tyreek Hill, it's you have to, like, interpret all the cryptic stuff he said about the Chiefs. Yeah. Does he want to go back? Does he really want that? I mean, 25:10 i- it's hard to figure out what the heck he's talking about half the time when he sa- says these things on podcasts, but it sounds like he wasn't always 100% happy with, uh, uh, Veach, or with Hunt, or with maybe Mahomes or, or with Reid, where that's not gonna sit well with him. 25:24 For sure. And I think that when you look at the big picture in Miami, it, it's just amazing to me that two weeks ago you reach out to a source and, you know- Yeah... 25:33 they basically say, "Hey, the Dolphins are all in, they should trade for Bryce Young." And we kind of, you know- [laughs]... thumped on that idea last week on the pod. Right, right. 25:40 But it's amazing how you can go from being a team that's all in, and spending all this money on a Jalen Ramsey, on locking up your franchise quarterback in Tua, on restructuring Tyreek Hill and all of these things that create flexibility- Yeah... 25:52 to keep building and pushing towards a Super Bowl, but the span of two weeks and one injury- Yeah... has you in limbo between maybe you're thinking about tearing the whole thing down. 26:02 It's just amazing to me how quickly these things can change. But there's another name out there that I think is interesting as a trade target for the Chiefs I want to throw at you. Okay. 26:12 I'm really intrigued by the fact that the Browns converted $12 million of Amari Cooper's salary into a signing bonus, which makes him incredibly affordable, incredibly easy to be traded. Okay. 26:23 And I don't know that they would, same sort of thought process as the Miami Dolphins, I don't know that Cleveland would trade Amari Cooper to the Kansas City Chiefs, but I do know he'd be an ideal fit for what they do. 26:35 I do know that he still has the speed to be a matchup nightmare opposite of Worthy, to become one of Patrick Mahomes' favorite targets. 26:42 I just don't know that even though the offense has struggled, even though that they're going to try and find every way and look over every nook and cranny to find a way out of that Deshaun Watson deal- Right... 26:52 I don't know that Cleveland's ready to throw in the towel, and that's what trading Amari Cooper would be in my opinion. That's what it would be. 26:58 Cooper ha- Cooper was, had a couple drop passes earlier in the year, had an 80-yard touchdown called back this week, so you can tell he's still got that. He's still got a lot left. He's only 30 years old. Right. 27:08 He is 30. He's been in the league for 23 years and he's only 30 year old, it's a miracle. I could see it, I could see him having an impact. The usual suspects, we're rounding up the usual suspects. Cooper, Nuke Hopkins. 27:21 Um, now of course maybe Tennessee still thinks they're going somewhere. He's got the one skill left where he can post up jump catch. He can still do that at a pretty high level. 27:31 That could be really helpful when, when Mahomes is the one tossing you the ball and you have to play post up. 27:35 That's something, I believe he's in the final year of his contract, that's a name that was being thrown around. 27:40 Christian Kirk is an interesting one as well, because if you, if, the concept is we need somebody to soak up catches. Like, I look at the, the Chiefs as like, somebody has to soak up catches. 27:50 Worthy's gonna go deep and do end arounds. Kelce used to soak up catches, you can only get so much out of him anymore. For, Juju Smith-Schuster a couple years ago did it, I, I don't think we want him doing it anymore. 28:00 Kirk can soak up targets. Eight yard targets- He's a data dynamo. Huh? He's a da- he's a data dynamo. The, the analytics people have loved him, people inside the league have loved him. He's a reliable pass catcher. 28:11 He's a guy who can get you the yak that we talked about early in the show- Right... in terms of what Justin Jefferson and Jordan Addison do really well. 28:19 He'd certainly fit the mold of a guy that you throw a, a three-yard bubble screen to, and you set up your blocking on the outside, and all of a sudden it's an express train down the field, which is what the Chiefs love to do with their wide receivers. 28:30 You saw them try that time and time again with Kadarius Toney a year ago. You've seen them introduce it with Xavier Worthy this year. Right. 28:37 If you have two of those guys, all of a sudden y- you have options again for Patrick Mahomes. One with blinding speed and one with a little more of ability to read a zone defense, where you bring Kirk in there. 28:47 Yeah, and imagine if you do it with somebody who knows what they're doing, as opposed to Kadarius Toney and Mecole Hardman. Someone who's- Yes... "Yes, I know how to play in the NFL. 28:54 I, I, I, my head is in the game," that would be great. And it's different for different teams at the trade deadline, 'cause when we talk about some of these trades, it's pie in the sky, et cetera. 29:02 Of all the teams where it's like, well there's no tomorrow really, if you get a three-peat, this is, like, an accomplishment that's a forever accomplishment, the Chiefs should be able, should take these aggressive, aggressive moves because Kelce may retire, because Chris Jones is probably a year or two away. 29:17 So any pie in the sky that they can throw out there, they should throw out there. You only get one chance at a three-peat. You only get one chance of being- Yeah... 29:24 one of those all time great dynasties that people talk about 20, 30 years down the line. I'm with you. You have to be bold. Brett Veach has a track record of being bold. Yes. 29:34 I, I'm, I'm kind of with you, I think they do something here. Yeah, yeah. We'll see it in the days and weeks to come. Get, get Balkey on the phone when he's in a bad mood, which is always. Especially after Sunday. 29:44 A- and, and- [laughs]... 29:45 I don't know that there's a, a coach in the league, I don't know if there's a person in the league who throws his players or his teammates under the bus quicker with more veracity, and then runs them over, uh, pounding the accelerator further through the floor-Than Doug Pederson did on Sunday afternoon. 30:01 Um- The com- the comments he made after that Texans game, that sh- he sounds like a guy who knows that he's done. Yeah, or, and doesn't care, kind of what we talked about last week. 30:12 "I know I'm done and I don't care, I'm just gonna do this." We talked about his Eagles tenure, you were there for some of that. Did he ever say anything like, "Hey, it's up to the players." 30:22 Did he ever say anything like that? I don't remember it. I've never heard a quote like this from Doug Pederson or, or any coach. Quote, "As coaches, we can't go out there and make the plays, right?" Right. 30:31 "It's a two-way street." Unquote. Right. Uh, what? Right. I, I, look, I, I appreciate the honesty as a reporter- Right... 30:40 but if I'm a player in that locker room, boy I'll tell you, the one way to rally me, the one way to inspire me, the one way to get me to run through a wall for you as a coach, the one way for me to reinstill my belief that we're headed in the right direction as a team, as a franchise, and in terms of a system and a scheme, it's to blame me for what's happening. 30:58 When the head coach is paid all of that money to deflect the bl- to, to accept the blame, to, to take it in, and shrug it off and move on and turn the page- And to do something... that's- And to do something. 31:10 Like, like fire your, your therapy pet, Press Taylor. Yes. You know? Like, like, like, like make the move. Or, or, you know, obviously take over play calling from him, or whatever it takes there. 31:19 This is a team, they get a, a big play early in that game, they stay in that game against a tough opponent. 31:23 They get down to the goal line again, and it's a random series of plays that like, make no sense and they don't stuff it in the end zone. Pederson's gotta be accountable for that. 31:33 But I, again, you're right, he, he knows he's done, and it's probably a thing where once those England games pass, unless they've rallied and won like, three games, he's done. 31:42 And he knows, and he's not somebody who fights through tooth and nail to keep the job under those circumstances. 31:47 No, and, and it almost feels like with all of the talent that's in place, and it, it's a pretty talented roster, they have players on both sides of the ball. Yeah. 31:57 It just feels like the, the, this situation with Pederson might have peaked. Now, their bye isn't until week 12. Right. Does he make the bye? Yeah. I mean, there's, there's, there's things that can happen along the way. 32:09 We, we always do the joke about like, "Oh, on the plane home from England." How many times have we done, "On the plane home from England they're gonna fire the, fire the Jaguars" joke? 32:17 That, uh, that, that is like, dad humor at this point, 'cause we've probably been doing it since like, 2009 or whatever, going back to Doug Marrone or somebody. Yes. 32:25 Um, but, but g- I mean, Urban Meyer made it to the bye, so I think, [laughs] I think Dougie can make it to the bye. They better be showing some sort of progress along the way. 32:32 This is a team, on paper, should be two and two. When you look at the games and you just erase some of the, if you just erase the third and short, fourth and short mistakes/goal line mistakes, 32:45 this should be a two and two team. And most of those mistakes you look at and say, "That's a play call, not necessarily an execution error." Doug and Press. I'm gonna call my shot here, and it's a bold one. Go for it. 32:57 No team has ever made the playoffs after starting 0 and 5. The Jaguars are 0 and 4. If they lose to the Indianapolis Colts at home, the fighting Joe Flaccos most likely, with Anthony Richardson being out- Yeah... 33:11 I, I think it's not going to be Doug Pederson who's the head coach when they board the flight to London next week against the Chicago Bears. 33:18 No, I'm gonna call your bl- call that one, because he'll fire Taylor as a sacrificial pawn. Or maybe he won't, 'cause remember, he, in Philly, they were like, "Make changes." "I, I ain't gonna make changes." 33:27 But I don't think- What changes? I don't think you take, uh, Nelson, the defensive coordinator, and say, "Hey, you gotta get on the plane." 33:32 I just, it just, it's a, it's a big ask, and I don't think that the, uh, even Balkey and even Shad are gonna do that. We'll see what happens there. It's gonna be ver- it's gonna be worth monitoring. 33:41 But I'll tell you this, their season might be defined by what happens against the Colts. 'Cause if they win that game, you have the Bears going to London with a rookie quarterback in place there. 33:51 You have crash test Brissette and the, the New England Patriots after that. Um, the Packers at Philly, who knows what the Eagles are gonna be at that point. And then Vikings, Lions, back, back before the bye. 34:04 You got those three games you just mentioned, okay. 34:07 You get the Bears and the Colts, you might have backup quarterback, rookie quarterback, nearly, uh, near-death experience quarterback in Brissette, or another rookie by that point. You gotta win two. 34:17 You absolutely have to win two. 34:19 If you are who you say you are, you should be able to get three wins out of that, especially if you, the whole thing about when you go to England as the Jaguars, it's like, this is so common for you guys, it's almost a home game in terms of your preparation and all. 34:32 That, that's it, this three-game stretch is gonna decide i- if he survives it, and I think he will. I agree. 34:37 I, I do find it interesting talking to a league executive last week who basically told me that he doesn't think that people were being honest with, uh, the, the owner down there, with Shad Khan. 34:46 E- especially thinking that he went into this year believing it was the best team that they've assembled, it was the most talented- Yes... team that they've had. 34:54 The, the people within that building were lying to him, that the talent isn't there. Mm-hmm. 34:59 A- and that just makes me think that if the owner realizes what's been happening this year, maybe that accelerates the process of making a bold change like firing a head coach. That might be it. 35:09 And there, there is some of that. I don't think the offensive line talent was, uh, uh, that great. I don't think the receiver talent was that great, especially when you lose Ridley. 35:17 You bring in guys like Armstead, I think that does help, et cetera. I did not see that. That doesn't sound like Doug doing the lying, though. Might not be, no. Might be a man named Trent doing the lying on that one, so. 35:29 Trying to save his own job, who I think should've been on the hot seat well before this year. 35:32 The Jaguars might be the biggest disappointment to the negative side of the ledger so far this year, but is there a more exciting surprise than Jayden Daniels and the Commanders right now? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. 35:44 Uh, got to, I, I sat down and really hunkered down with the tape yesterday. 35:48 Impressed by him, impressed by Kliff Kingsbury, which is not words that normally leave my mouth, and just excited for what they're doing down there.No, I agree, and it's an immediate culture shift for Dan Quinn and Jayden Daniels because w- when you start winning games the way that they are, blowing out a team like the Cardinals, who you go into that, you rah, rah, win it for Cliff, you know- Yeah... 36:08 take care of business there. 36:10 Y- Coming off the thrilling win in prime time, national TV audience, on the road in Cincinnati over the Bengals, where they're still replaying that throw to Terry McLaurin all around the facility in Washington. Yeah. 36:23 But you look at what he's doing right now, 12th in the league in passing yards, 897, three touchdowns, one pick. But I'll tell you what impressed me the most about the kid, Mike. 36:32 It's when he threw his first interception on Sunday in Arizona, he was able to turn his back on the adversity, shrug off the failure, went back out there and led three straight scoring drives for Washington. 36:43 To me, that's the kind of veteran quarterback response that I don't know that I was expecting to see from Jayden Daniels or any rookie quarterback. 36:52 And most importantly, as a scout pointed out to me, for a young quarterback, it's important that your teammates believe in you. W- well, they've bought in on Daniels, that's for damn sure. I think they bought in on him. 37:02 I think the organization bought in. The back-to-back wins, and I know it was three straight, the first one was the Giants, and it was kind of mucky. 37:09 You come off a Monday night win, and a young team coming off a Monday night win will often be flat the next week. When you go out there and you, you get this kind of statement victory, that speaks a lot to them. 37:19 In terms of his decision-making, I'm not one of these guys who, like, watches and says, "Well, he should have thrown it to that guy, not that guy"- [laughs]... 37:24 pretending I know the playbook, like people like to do on YouTube. Um, when you see things like g- even, he knows he's gotta give up on a play, he doesn't throw across his body, he goes out- Right... for gain of one. 37:35 He slides sometimes, as well. He's gotta work on that, but he'll, he'll tumble down and, and, and, and, and give up after modest gains, things like that. He does check the ball down. 37:44 All of that stuff, combined with the explosive ability, is, gives him all this growth potential as a quarterback. But I wanted to, I wanna hit you with this. So we can gush, we can gush, we can gush. Okay? 37:55 But we have to put this, we gotta be actionable with our things. We say, "Oh, he's awesome." What do you really expect? I'm gonna start with, um, Daniels, and then I'll talk about the Commanders. 38:06 What do you really expect from Jayden Daniels this year? Let's not go 15 years in the future, put him in the Hall of Fame. What's a reasonable expectation for Daniels this year? 38:15 Yeah, I think based on what we've seen so far, I- I don't know that 3,200 passing yards with- Yeah... 20 inter- 20 touchdowns and nine interceptions, I, I don't know that that's off the table. 38:28 And now, now maybe the yardage is a little bit low there, but I think that he has the ability, now, whether the talent is around him or not at this point, from a play-making perspective at receiver, I think that he has the ability to put up that C.J. 38:43 Stroud kind of year, but I just don't know that the yardage is going to wind up being there by season's end. And that's it. 38:49 So sometimes if you're a balanced team, that's gonna affect your yardage, and sometimes when you're winning, that's going to affect the quarterback's yardage, 'cause he's not out there throwing for 80 yards on the final drive down by six touchdowns. 39:00 Right. So, you know, Smith's numbers l- yesterday got kind of inflated at the end of that game. Um, Daniels right now is minus 120 for Offensive Rookie of the Year. Now, obviously the front runner. 39:13 My gut tells me minus 120, there's still meat on that bone- Yeah... that I would jump on that at this point. Um, if he goes down to, like, minus 200, it's like, why are you betting? 'Cause there's not g- enough action. 39:24 But minus 120, that's just a regular bet. I kinda like that. I, I do, too, and I'm not even sure, uh, barring a Caleb Williams, you know, suddenly waking up and getting, you know, elite timing with Rome Odunze and D.J. 39:37 Moore and Keenan Allen, I don't know who supplants Jayden Daniels in that run. May- maybe Ladd McConkie. Neighbors. A- he, Malik Nabers, I guess- Yeah... 39:47 but he's on a bad team, and, and who knows how long they're gonna stick with Daniel Jones, when you start talking about the injury guarantee that led to Russell Wilson being benched last year. 39:55 Same narrative, same conversation might wind up happening in New York. So yeah, I think a runaway favorite, prohibitive favorite as Offensive Rookie of the Year, that's on the table for, for Jayden Daniels. But Mike, 40:09 what happens, what happens if they're a 12-win football team? Now, I'm not saying that's the reasonable expectation, but does he then enter the MVP conversation if they're- I knew you were going there... 40:21 m- I knew, and I gotta pull it back up. Like, you're, you're, y- you're never satisfied. You have to go... Okay, so let me pull it up here. Hold on. [laughs] MVP. 40:30 I'm not saying I'm buying into it, because I don't know that that's the case, but I think the conversation builds some groundswell if you're winning 12, 13 games with a rookie quarterback. 40:38 W- we did this with Stroud last year, certainly. Yes. It's... 40:41 But first of all, y- the voters, you're looking at the bins that the voters are going to put him in, and, uh, he would be at plus 2500 for MVP, and I am not advocating the bet. No. 40:50 So l- I think we're just, we're just hurdles and hurdles away from that, in a situation where they, not only do they win 12 games, but they win 12 games and, for some reason, we're not talking about Josh Allen, um- Or Patrick Mahomes Or Patrick Mahomes. 41:03 Or Sam Darnold. Or Patrick Mahomes. Or Justin Jefferson. Or, uh, there's this guy- Or Lamar Jackson, or Derrick Henry Yeah, Derrick Henry. 41:09 There's this guy named Brock Purdy, I don't know if you've heard of him, but even though all this, he leads the league in all the passing categories, even though all his guys are hurt, 41:16 and for two years I heard that the only reason why it was good is because all his guys were healthy and they were amazing, but then they're hurt, and he's still leading the league. 41:22 So there's a guy, Brock Purdy, that we might wanna talk about, who's, you know, been to the Super Bowl and- Yes... stuff like that. 41:26 But, you know, uh, plus 2500, you wanna go to Offensive Player of the Year, we can go there, uh, 'cause th- that might be different. I, I've, I can't find it. Oh, he's at plus 5,000. That's interesting. 41:39 He's less likely to get- I know... Offensive Player of the Year. 'Cause if he's not MVP, all the voters are gonna say, "He's Rookie of the Year. Let's compartmentalize him over here and not put him in that category." 41:49 Um, I wanna switch it, though. I wanna talk about the team, 'cause you talk about the, um, you know, the expectation that maybe they can win 12 games. 41:56 I'll start with the easy one-The Commanders are plus 115 to make the playoffs. Do you like it? Pound it. Po- pound, pound the plus 115. Look, I think that they now might be the best team in the division. Mm. 42:10 I went into this year, we've talked about this before the year, we went on your podcast with Aaron Schatz at FTN- Yeah... where I brought this up, uh, to you guys on that show. 42:19 I thought all along they had the makings of a team that could play spoiler, push for a playoff berth in their own right. 42:27 But looking what's happening in Washington with Jayden Daniels, what they did without Austin Ekeler the last game in Arizona, who's a big part of what they do and a big part of providing that balance. 42:37 Y- you look at what's happening in Dallas, you look at the Giants being irrelevant, you look at the Eagles suddenly looking like a bit of a rudderless ship with bad vibes. Mm. 42:45 All of a sudden, I have to wonder if the NFC East is on the table and within reach for Washington. See, you're always a step ahead of me. 42:54 [laughs] You're always, you're always trying to drive the car further down the road, 'cause it's like, yeah, 115, I'll pound that. 'Cause I'm thinking in terms of, okay, I don't think the Bears have any staying power. 43:01 We're going to erase the Rams c- from the conversation due to injuries, et cetera. So that place is there for the Commanders team. You're at the division t- title. Commanders plus 240. 43:12 Yeah, I'd feel pretty comfortable with that. And n- not, not a lot of money- Right... but I would put, I'd put something on that, because I just look at the f- the flaws and failures of the other teams. Mm. 43:21 Derrick Henry has more, twice as many explosive runs, uh, of 10 yards or more than the Dallas Cowboys do. The, the, the, Derrick Henry would be 15th in the league in rushing. 43:30 The Cowboys are led by Rico Dowdle with less than 300 rushing yards so far this season. The Eagles were out-gained 255 yards to nothing in the first quarter against Tampa Bay, and the Giants are the Giants. 43:42 The Giants are the Giants. Commanders are at plus 240, Cowboys are at plus 240. They're at the same place. Eagles are still the favorites, I, I respect that. 43:50 Giants are at plus 4,000, if you feel like, uh, wiping your butt with some money. Uh, I, I'll say this, by the way, y- you br- you, you bring in Derrick Henry just unf- uh, un- unbidden. Um, Cowboys reporter RJ Achilla 44:03 on Threads seems to make it his business every day to troll the Cowboys fan base as a Cowboys reporter- Yes... about Derrick Henry. 44:10 And e- every reminder he can make that Jerrah was out there saying, "Well, w- you know, we, we ain't gonna get him. We don't want him. We can't afford him." We can't afford him. We can't afford him. 44:19 You know, we just spent $600 million on, on, on Dak now, but we can't afford him. It's hilarious. I just find that funny. Okay, so you're comfortable plus 240. I'm not going to do divi- conference. 44:30 You're not at conference, uh- No. No, no, no, no, no... no. You're not gonna, like, s- take the 49ers out of here. No, let's get this, uh, give me a second, I'm going to find them on, uh... 44:40 The over-under for Commanders at wins is 9.5, and you can get the over at plus 120. I'll take the over. 44:47 You're taking the- I, I, I think they can p- I went into the year thinking they were a nine or so win team, and that's before realizing that Jayden Daniels was this good and this ready this quickly. 44:58 So I think, I think they could be a 10, 11 win team, and that's why I kind of believe they have a chance to win the division, because I, I think it might be a race to 10 wins in that division. 45:07 Look, the Eagles have issues. The Cowboys issues we touched on. We didn't even mention DeMarcus Lawrence and Micah Parsons both being hurt as well. Yeah. 45:14 There's, there's, there's a bit of an opening here for Washington, and Daniels looks like he's ready to steamroll through it. All right. I would be more comfortable 45:23 over plus 9.5 if both Giants games, if one wasn't already in the bag. If I could say I got two wins right there. I c- go through the schedule. Plus 120, I don't think that's bad, but you do have to get to 10. 45:33 I would say go with the, if you're, if you're looking at it and you're not all in, at the very least, go for the playoff prop. I like that one. 45:41 And again, my thing is, Rookie of the Year at minus 120, I don't hate that right now, because that's plenty of meat on the bone for somebody. I can't... 45:49 Like you s- you said, neighbors, I can't get comfortable with neighbors. I don't believe Caleb Williams is taking that step forward. I was just watching the Bears tape. It, it's not good. 45:57 [laughs] But he, he, he, he manufactured a win. It was not good by any stretch of the imagination. 46:01 It's not what Daniels is doing, it's- It's still timing and accuracy concerns with him, and, you know, it's, it's, those were never his strengths a- at USC, but you would think that with the pieces around him, with those receivers, 46:15 you would think that he would throw a more catchable ball to these guys more often than he is. 46:21 Well, it's hard to throw a catchable ball when you double clutch so many times in the pocket that the defense conver- [laughs] converge on the guy, and that's a big problem I'm seeing right now. 46:29 They're trying to get him more short scripted passes. But yeah, you know, the impersonation of Caleb Williams is pump fake, pump fake, pump fake, scramble, pump fake, get sacked or, or whatever. 46:38 The impersonation of Bo Nix is, "Ah, here's the ball. Throw it in the flat for a loss of two." And Daniels, there's no impersonation. 46:44 Like, this is a functional quarterback who can do read option, do things like that and, and throws a very nice deep ball and can make some pretty good decisions on short passes. Absolutely. 46:53 So let's turn the page to week five a little bit here. It, it's a very interesting, uh, slate of games. There are a couple that bear monitoring. There are also a, more than a- [laughs]... 47:03 more than a healthy amount of slop on the schedule this week- [laughs]... to put it mildly and kindly. But Mike, what's your Circle It game for this week? I forget, what did I put on the... What did I p- [laughs] 47:15 Wait, let me find it. Give me a minute. Week five. Well, you have Bills-Texans as your Circle It game on the outline. Bills-Texans Circle It game, you have two three-and-one teams. 47:24 Uh, and I, I've been doing a lot of research, and here's a shocking piece of information. The most penalized team in the NFL in terms of yardage is not the Houston Texans, it is in fact the Ravens, okay? 47:36 So let's put that over the side. The most in- penalized team in terms of penalties is the Houston Texans, and anybody who's watched them is stunned by the amount of penalties. 47:45 Left tackle Laremy Tunsil, a longtime Pro Bowler, has a dozen penalties. He's getting a little bowl- older. He's got an injury. I think he's trying to false start his way into, into protection along the way. 47:55 This is a bit of a vexing Texans team, because they're in first and 15, first and 20-Second and 20 so often that it's hard to get tr- keep track of how well CJ Stroud is doing, how well their defense is doing. 48:09 And I, I want to see them solve this penalty issue and go toe-to-toe with the Bills, who we both know are coming off a big Monday, a Sunday night loss in which they did not look like themselves. 48:19 I'll call this a game that the Texans can't afford to lose, 'cause that division's j- a joke. 48:25 It's not a game the Bills can afford to lose, 'cause you don't wanna go three and two and say, "Our resume contains playoff implication losses against two teams we might have to need, need to head-to-head to in the postseason." 48:37 What's your circle game? My circle game is Chiefs-Saints on Monday night. I'm waiting all the way to Monday night for mine, because I look at this game, it's in Arrowhead- Mm-hmm... 48:44 so you're gonna get the opportunity to see the Saints outside of- This is g-... their buzzsaw of, of the Super Dome. Yeah. 48:50 They're coming off a loss to the Atlanta Falcons, so they need this game to keep pace in a suddenly pretty competitive and pretty fun AFC South. Yeah. 48:58 And I wanna see what the Chiefs look like at wide receiver, because they're, even if by our fortuitous luck they make a trade for Amari Cooper in five minutes after we end the podcast, he's still gonna have a ramp-up period in Kansas City. 49:10 Right. Whether there's a new wide receiver there or not, I wanna see what that offense looks like without Rashee Rice. 49:17 I wanna see what Patrick Mahomes does, how much magic is in his bag of tricks against a really good Saints team i- in, in a game where you lost another one of your weapons in Rashee Rice last week. 49:29 Two really good teams, two teams that are in the playoff conversation. The Chiefs obviously have higher expectations than that. 49:36 So I think it's gonna be a really good game, and I think we're gonna learn a lot about how the Saints go toe-to-toe about, against competitive teams, and what the Chiefs are gonna be for at least the near-term future here. 49:47 That's right, I got mixed up. It is at Arrowhead. I don't wanna see that offense, 'cause it might make me sad. [laughs] It might make me sad. 49:55 I don't necessarily like when the quarterback is down to absolutely nothing to throw to. I didn't like it with Jalen Hurts. I don't even like it with Justin Herbert. I like making fun of Justin Herbert. 50:03 I wanna see him out there with some of his guys. But y- we, of course we have to see it- Yes... because we have to get, get a range on this, uh, team. By the way, you're right. 50:12 There's a couple of games that I really like on this [laughs] schedule. Like, I like Ravens-Bengals. That l- you know- Yes... 50:17 the records are bad, but I, those are good teams and- I, I couldn't go Ravens as a circle game three straight weeks. I just couldn't do it. Oh. 50:22 Because then it would generally run the risk of being a Ravens beat reporter or something like that. I needed to broaden my scope of which games I'm circling and which teams I'm, I'm highlighting here. And I would. 50:32 I would, I would, I would definitely go after you on that. And like, uh, I see Jets-Vikings, that's an interesting one. But dear Lord, dear Lord some of these games are bad. 50:40 Bucs-Falcons, Bucs-Falcons should be a pretty good Thursday night game. I am looking forward to that. That's a good Thursday night game. That's a good Thursday night game. 50:45 And you made a Monday night game, which is why Sunday's slate starts to look like, ooh. Yeah. Ugh. Yeah. Yeah. Mike, what do we have coming up on Too Deep Zone the rest of the week? I'm doing so much penalty research. 50:58 Uh, dear listeners who might also be readers, I, I'm trying, I'm gonna make it fun. There's a lot of interesting stuff. Penalties are up, illegal formation penalties are up. 51:07 The Texans are a penalty plague, uh, w- with, with helmets on. 51:11 Um, so there's a lot to talk about there, and I wanna give folks some good advice moving forward about what teams might be able to solve their penalty problems, what teams won't. 51:19 And will the NFL be able to solve what looks like a big penalty problem where they're, they're just throwing more flags than they've thrown since 2019, and it's impacting how fun the games are to watch. I totally agree. 51:28 There have been a couple of these Monday night games where it's just flag after flag after flag, and it's like you lose the flow of the game, you lose some of the excitement, and obviously it impacts the game, uh, you know, the flow of the game and all of those things. 51:42 Um, I have a fun story dropping on Wednesday morning at Between the Hash Marks, just having a little bit of fun, the 10 biggest winners and losers of the first month of the NFL- Nice... season. 51:52 We've touched on a few of them on this podcast. Mm-hmm. Um, got some insight from a couple of sources sprinkled in there. That's a freebie on the site. So if you- Cool... 52:00 like it, please consider upgrading to a paid subscription, or if you don't, haven't subscribed at all, what are you waiting for? I hope that maybe this one ropes you in as a little preview of what you can expect. 52:09 And then of course the mail bag, um, with sourced insight from people around the league every Football Friday. So it's another, another fun week over on the Substack. I'm trying to think of the winners and losers. 52:19 Now, obviously there's a couple obvious ones, but I'm trying to think of some... G- give me a, give me a really, like, uh, maybe mildly surprising, give the listeners, a loser, for example. 52:30 You know, I, I have Nick Sirianni pretty high on the list of, uh, losers after th- what has played out with the Eagles here so far. 52:37 Um, I'd have to look up in terms of what- [laughs] I, I didn't mean to put you on the spot, 'cause I know you ha- like, uh, grab the Google Document and, and you know. Yes. No, I was actually in the process. 52:47 Actually, I, I have, uh, Tyreek Hill as one of the biggest losers, to no fault of his own. Okay. Because you look at how the season started, uh, with the incident outside of Hard Rock Stadium before- Uh-huh... 52:57 Week One even kicks off. Right. 52:58 And you lo- you go into the year thinking that you have Tua, and you're playing across from Jaylen Waddle, and you have this track star team around you, and you look up four weeks in and it's Tim Boyle over there throwing me passes, so- Right... 53:11 to no fault of his own, Tyreek Hill is one of the biggest losers on the list. T- Tyreek, it's fourth and one, we need you to get that yard. That's what they were- Yes... doing last night. 53:20 We need you a- and, and, and A.J. We need you guys, the speedsters, to get that yard somehow. This is not what he signed up for. No, not at all. Uh, Mike, any parting shots before we roll out of here? Absolutely not. 53:31 I think that was my pop- parting shot. You're right, good Thursday night game, and looking forward to another week of NFL excitement. Can't wait. We'll talk to you next week. 53:39 Uh, please subscribe on the Apple Podcast store, Spotify. Leave us those five-star reviews and ratings. Subscribe to Mike Tanier's Too Deep Zone and Between the Hash Marks on Substack. Mike, this was fun. 53:48 We'll talk to you next week. Absolutely. Take care. Enjoy your week, folks.
