Transcript 0:00 [upbeat rock music] All right, all right, welcome back into the Between the Hash Marks podcast after a brief hiatus, and with the 2025 NFL draft hours and days away, depending on when you're listening to this, where hope springs eternal and optimism is abound for all 32 teams. 0:20 I'm Matt Lombardo, joined by my friend, colleague, mentor, and the purveyor of the Two Deep Zone, fresh off the exhaustive and exhausting Two Deep 96, getting you ready for the top prospects in this draft. 0:32 Mike, you look ready for this thing to finally get underway. So tired, so very tired, but with better sound quality I hope, thanks to this new microphone that some of you can see if you're watching this. 0:41 But I'm done, I'm done mentally, I'm ready for the draft to happen, I'm ready to talk about draft assessments, I'm ready to talk about something besides football for a few weeks. 0:50 H- how you do- how was, was, was the Easter Bunny kind to you? It was very kind to the children. The, the kids loved it. We took them out to Hershey. 0:57 We saw the, uh, the, the Reese's Bunny, our favorite over-corporatized Easter Bunny. [laughs] Um, I, I texted you the photo and, and you- Yeah... 1:05 you had quipped [laughs] that it was the, the Senior Bowl rabbit or the- It's the Senior Bowl bunny, yeah... or the Easter Bunny. It's Ju- it's actually, that's Jim Nagy's job now. 1:13 He's in, he's in that, he's the Rees- he's the Reese's Reese's Bowl, Reese's Bunny now. Yes, the Senior Bowl bunny. How about you guys? Good Easter for you guys, good holiday? Very good, very quiet, very... 1:22 It's, it's different when you're an empty nester, man, it's very different. The kids come home, they eat. On the Saturday night, they go to the bar. 1:30 It's a, it's a whole different vibe, and then, you know, Sunday night comes, and the, it's my wife and I having a cocktail. Nothing wrong with that, by the way. 1:37 And then you look at the calendar and you're like, "Oh my God, the draft is four days away. We better get ready for this thing." 1:41 And obviously if you enjoy the podcast, please go ahead and subscribe in the Apple Podcast store, Spotify, check us out on YouTube on my YouTube channel @MattLombardo975. Be sure you click through all of the Two Deep 96. 1:53 There's so many fun, interesting, informative nuggets in the Two Deep 96 over the last few weeks at the Two Deep Zone. 1:59 Subscribe to the Two Deep Zone on Substack, and if you're a fan of my work and my insight, check out Between the Hash Marks and subscribe there on Substack as well. And you just put up a big mock draft here on Monday. 2:10 I couldn't be bothered, but you got one out there, got one with some inside voices in there, et cetera. Yeah. 2:16 You know, I, I've, I think I, at the very top of the mock draft, I basically wrote that mock drafts are a fool's errand, and- Yes... 2:22 you see people like Todd McShay and Field Yates, and I love Field, great guy by the way, uh- Yeah... really stand-up dude. Uh, Mel Kiper Jr. 2:31 These guys put out 10, 15, 20 mock drafts through the course of, you know, back in November all the way through the morning of the draft. I can't bring myself to do it, Mike. I can't do it. 2:42 [laughs] So if I'm going to do one- Uh-huh... I'm going to do it right, and I'm gonna ask around, uh, executives and scouts and sources to get their thoughts on this draft. 2:51 And by the way, Mike, uh, most interesting thing I heard from an executive, we've kinda talked about this off-camera as well, he called it the strangest draft in years. Okay, yeah. 2:59 That there's four blue-chip prospects in this draft, but Cam Ward is not one of them. He thinks Cam Ward could be the best quarterback in this class, doesn't view him as a surefire franchise quarterback. 3:12 There are only four blue chips in his opinion. By strangest draft, doesn't he mean, like, crappiest draft? Is that what he was trying to say? [laughs] Yeah, I think there's some of that in play here, right? 3:21 Because it's almost like, and I think you've heard this a couple places as well, that, you know, the guy that you're picking at number six, you could pick at 26 or 36, that they're just- Right... 3:34 the same guys, the same caliber of player, that there's not this clear-cut separation of blue chip, elite, can't-miss franchise offensive tackle, elite All-Pro edge rusher. 3:45 There's not a collection of these guys, and Mike, I don't know what you think of this theory, but I think that's why we haven't seen one single team trade up in the first round yet, because there's just... 3:55 Look, if, if you're the Cleveland Browns, you're taking Travis Hunter or Abdul Carter, right? If you're the New York Giants, you're taking Travis Hunter or Abdul Carter. But after that- [laughs]... 4:06 why would you trade up, why would you pass on the opportunity to take those guys, and if you're any other team in the league, who else is there that's worth trading up for that you couldn't get at your slot? That's it. 4:17 I think one of the things I've, I've been saying, I'll probably write it on draft night if I haven't already written it, Cam Ward is fine as the first overall pick, but he's not a first overall pick you trade up for. 4:28 If you're there and you need the quarterback and that's the resource allocation, it's like, well, it's justifiable. 4:34 This isn't the first year in history that the number one quarterback wasn't really one of the top three or four guys. He's the number one quarterback, that's different. 4:40 The moment you're a team like, say, the Giants, who's like, "We're going to trade up to do this," you're taking a risk that, like, Cam Ward's capabilities do- doesn't support. 4:49 Like, he's not worth this year's number one and, like, next year's number one and a number three or whatever it would take to get this guy. Right. 4:56 And then you're right, the, the difference between, like, the number one offensive lineman, whether that's Campbell or Membo or, and the number five or six, is minuscule. 5:04 It might be a matter of what your scheme is or how you perceive these guys. Same with the number two edge rusher, Bilil Carter, and, like, down to, I don't know, eight, nine, 10, 11. Right. 5:14 What, what, what is the difference between, say, a Mike Green and a Shemar Stewart? Very similar traits. One had a lot of production- Right... at the University of Marshall, the other has elite athleticism- Yeah... 5:27 but no stats to back it up, and you're taking a bit of a gamble there. What's the difference between the tackles like you spoke about? 5:34 How wide is the difference between a Trevion Henderson and a Omarion from, uh, North Carolina? 5:40 Uh, it, it, it just seems like the, the drop-off within the positions, at least in the first two rounds, doesn't feel that significant. The blue chips are Hunter, Carter, GNT, and Mason Graham? Is that the four? 5:54 Yeah, those are the four. Those would be my guess of the four. Right, and even Graham is, like, I don't know how much better he is than Nolan. Looks like Nolan is slipping for pers- uh, uh, character issues. 6:03 I thought Derek Carmen was as good or better than, than these guys. Now he's only a one-year production guy. 6:08 So even the defensive tackle or first of all you're taking that defensive tackle, I don't think any of them are Jaylen Carter.No, but a lot of, by, by taking a defensive tackle early feels like following the blueprint of Howie Roseman and the Eagles, and watching what they did to the Chiefs in the Super Bowl, and it's a copycat league. 6:24 People do silly things for quarterbacks. I think we're gonna start seeing teams do silly things for edge rushers and defensive tackles. 6:31 And that's why I have a whole bunch of questions I wanna ask you, 'cause you're the one who did all the work on this one. 6:35 I was, I was, uh, I was cavorting with the Easter Bunny a little bit over the weekend, and I'll start with this. Like, yours begins with Ward, Hunter, Carter. Mine would begin with Ward, Hunter, Carter. 6:47 Uh, I think Ward, is Ward's contract signed? Is that official? I, I don't know if that's official, but last I heard he was getting fitted for a Tennessee Titans jersey, so it, it, it's going to happen. 6:56 It's just a matter... [laughs] Look, if you're Brian Callahan, you need to get going here, right? Right. Like, you need a quarterback. You're picking number one. Will Levis ain't it, you know? 7:06 You, you have some- [laughs]... pieces on offense. You need a competent quarterback, and you need to restart your own clock after that disappointing first year. 7:13 I, I think it's, it's now a coin flip, Mike, about Abdul Carter or Travis Hunter at number two. I think that's the most fascinating pick in the draft, because if you're the Browns, what do you do here? 7:24 Do you go and get Travis Hunter so that the rookie quarterback you inevitably take next year is ready to roll with an elite weapon, or do you kind of give a wink and a nod to Myles Garrett and say, "Hey, Myles, have fun racing after the quarterback and the Defensive Player of the Year with Abdul Carter on the other side." 7:40 Right, right, where that could be a s- a, a little present- Yes... for Garrett. Like, "Here, here's a friend." [laughs] A Christmas present, so to speak, if this was a different type of transaction. 7:49 Right, right, a- and the whole thing with Hunter, you know, is he's out there saying, "If I can't play two ways, I'm gonna retire." Yeah. 7:54 Which is a little bonkers, but it's like him sort of, like, planting his expectations in the sand, and the Browns have been all over the place t- in response to that. 8:02 Um, you know, where at one point, uh, uh, their GM compared Travis Hunter to the, the slugger. Ohtani, the slugging- Yes... pitcher. 8:10 It's like, well, you know, he's, he's, he's like, he's like Ohtani, and I'm like, that's great. Ohtani hasn't, hasn't pitched in two years, so- Right. He got hurt and he never pitched again so far. [laughs] Right. 8:20 Last I checked, Ohtani isn't going, isn't having guys charging after him and tackling him- [laughs]... every single snap, right? Right. Right, but you're comparing him to this guy, "Well, he's a great two-way player." 8:28 He doesn't play two ways anymore, so, like, if Hunter is hearing this, he's gotta be saying, "Well, wait. Are you saying that, yeah, while I could do this, you don't want me to do this." 8:36 So you, but you don't think right now it's inevitably Ward, Hunter, Carter, one, two, three. It could be- I, I, I think it's one, it's inevitable that those are the picks. 8:46 I just don't think that it's inevitable that that's the order. I mean, listen, Andrew Berry went out to State College to take Abdul Carter out to dinner two or three times. 8:54 I, I don't know that I could name you three restaurants, and I'm a, I'm up at Penn State six Saturdays a year. 8:59 [laughs] I don't know that there are four restaurants in State College worth visiting Abdul Carter for, you know what I'm saying? 9:05 [laughs] Like, you go to The Field Burger, and that's nice, and it's a great novelty and it's a great burger. Where, where are you going from there? 9:11 [laughs] The, the, the Corner Room, and you're eating, like, 1950s homemade, you know, cuisine? 9:16 Like, if you're investing that much time going there to spend time with Abdul Carter, I feel like the interest has to be tangible and real. 9:25 And look, Andrew Berry's the same GM who went to Indianapolis, stood at the podium, and said, "We're nev- never under any circumstance trading Myles Garrett." 9:34 Well, if you're gonna pay Myles Garrett all that money, maybe get him a running mate. Okay. I, I can see it. By the way, they're on Jimmy Haslam's expense account. 9:41 They might be eating at some of the cheaper places that you went as an undergrad at 2:00 in the morning. That might be all that, all that Berry can afford when he goes out there. Interesting you get to number four, 9:51 and you got Membo. Yes. During the Patriots. Not Will Campbell, but, uh, but, but Membo. Talk, tell me about that. Yeah, call this an informed hunch, so to speak. 10:02 You know, every year it seems like they're, with the offensive tackles, it, we can all write the same four offensive tackles in the same order that they're chosen every year, and it doesn't always play out that way. 10:13 I think Campbell has better tape, but two different teams I spoke to, now they might've just been, you know, blowing smoke to create a narrative or change a narrative, but multiple teams that I spoke to were concerned about the short arms, and one, one executive told me, "We, we take measurements for a reason. 10:31 If we're not gonna value that information why do we do it?" Right. 10:34 And if that's the case, then Membo number four to the Patriots as that franchise cornerstone offensive tackle, uh, could be the pick, and I think Campbell doesn't last on the board much longer after that. 10:45 But it's just one of those things where I'm putting together the mock and I'm thinking to myself, "Okay, I'm hearing this from teams," and I'm also sitting here remembering how many times we thought that, you know, offensive tackle X was the generational prospect, and he's the second or third tackle chosen. 11:00 Right. Right, and, and when you look at Amaimemu, and this is a guy out of Missouri, uh, much more raw, not as much starting experience. No one has as much starting experience as Will Campbell. 11:09 Um, but just, like, just rocks guys. Just absolutely rocks guys, but he's mistake-prone. 11:15 He's the kind of guy where it's like in three years if he doesn't get completely obliterated a- as a rookie, he could wind up being the better player. 11:23 Uh, but that's interesting because they don't have three years in, in New England. 11:25 They, they need somebody to play probably left tackle probably pretty quickly along the way, and that would be where I would've thought Will Campbell would go there. And he might still wind up going there. 11:34 Maybe they view him as the more complete player, and they, they feel like they don't have time to wait to mold Membo. Yeah. Um, but, but we'll see how it plays out. 11:41 I think that that's a tackle inevitably, whether it's Membo or whether it's Campbell, because you need, you can't send Drake May out there, uh, to be a crash test dummy in his second year. 11:51 You, you, you can't invest that money in Stefon Diggs and, you know, not be able to utilize him because your quarterback is getting pressured 14 times a game. It can't happen. You can't, it can't happen. 12:01 I just hate the idea that the Pats are just gonna stand pat, draft for need. It seem, it just seems like the way they do things now. 12:07 It's like we, we go out and get the guy that's sitting there at the top of the board that you get guys, and it doesn't... They don't have any, I don't know, lilt or, like, like, inspiration to what they're doing. 12:18 Spending money, getting better.Yeah, we'll see Hey, Bill Belichick's in Chapel Hill. He, he, he took the, the Belichick way with him. 12:25 Bill Belichick's in Chapel Hill and ma- whatever you do, do not criticize Steve Belichick. No. No. No. You'll, you'll end up on the blacklist. He's, he's his own man. He's not tied to his daddy's apron strings. 12:38 He's definitely not tied to his new mommy's apron strings. We're not gonna go into that right now. 12:42 [laughs] Um, but 'cause I'm gonna say, 'ca- 'cause like right now, uh, on the gambling sites, it's Ward, Hunter, Carter, Campbell, and then a fifth, and that's pretty much every prop you can get. 12:51 You can't even get the Memeo prop right now, which is interesting. Interesting. That's interesting, so it's almost like Vegas knows that Campbell's a lock. It does. We'll see. 12:58 I mean, they're gonna look like somebody who took a risk, a risk and came up looking like an idiot, or, you know, the, the, it'll, it'll wind up being the, the one mock draft out of the tens of thousands that have been made- Well, yeah... 13:09 they got it right. Go play it. Go play it. Yeah. And ju- just play M- Memeo first tackle, Memeo to the, uh, the Patriots. You feel it, go for it, see what you're getting out there. I have heard other things. 13:19 That, I'm not, I'm not, like, criticizing you. I've heard other things, like, "Oh, they might be looking this other direction." I've definitely heard that he's the better option. So we'll see. 13:28 Let's go down to the Saints. Let's go down to, you ha- a, you had Shador to the Saints, right? Yes, because I don't know how you can 13:36 stop looking 12 minutes into the future when Derek Carr gets hurt and he's possibly done for the year. Like, that, that almost forces you to have the quarterback conversation, does it not? Yeah. 13:47 I, I al- The long-term quarterback conversation. Yeah, well, right. Well, when Derek Carr might be done and your other choices are Spencer Rattler and Jake Haener, you better be having that conversation. 13:55 Here's my question, though. Can they stand Pat at nine? Yeah. I, I, I've, I've seen Shador going off the board back end of round one. I've seen him slide out of the first round. Mm-hmm. 14:07 Uh, I, I've took part in a mock draft, um, with the people over at Threads. Yeah. Uh, I made the selections for the Chicago Bears, the Cincinnati Bengals, and the Eagles. 14:17 Uh, NFL Threads account is tweeting them, posting them out right now. Beautiful. Uh, between you and I and our listeners, Shador Sanders was not chosen in that first round. Interesting. Yes. That's interesting. 14:30 I, o- who did the Saints person pick? [laughs] I think they, I believe they went Jaxson Dart. They went with Jaxson Dart, okay. I would not take Jaxson Dart over Shador Sanders, but I've seen that out there. 14:41 A- and I get it, but I also get the, the possibility, you know, the Jets are in there. They're, they're just going with Justin Fields for a year. You got the Raiders up there. They're in the short term with Gino. 14:51 H- here's what I did. As I'm, I'm, I'm making a little list of things I'm looking for on draft night. If the Saints solve their quarterback situation, either with Shador, 15:02 well, let's just say with Shador, they have to do it without giving up one of their two second round picks. 15:07 If they decide they have to move up, that's fine, but if they're not, if they just throw a second round pick at somebody to move up a spot or two, that's a fail. 15:14 That's a fail for a team that has a lot of other problems besides quarterback. If they go with Dart, and then they go with Dart ninth overall, you're talking about, like, reaching at quarterback. Ninth overall? 15:24 Yeah, that's a big reach. 15:25 Would, would you, would you advocate taking the best player available, whether it's one of the edge rushers, uh, whether it's one of the tackles, whatever the plethora of needs are in New Orleans, taking them at nine and packaging two picks, the two second round picks, to move up with, say, uh, th- number, whoever's at number 30, to catch a f- a falling knife in Shador Sanders? 15:48 Oh, if it's, oh, if that's the case, and you got... 15:50 Yeah, so you went out there and you got, uh, yeah, an edge rusher, you got Shemar Stewart or somebody like that at the top, and then you package your seconds, as long as you don't overpay for it to get Shador. 16:00 If you're packaging to get Dart, I worry. Yeah. Remember just how the Saints, I, I was talking about the Saints earlier on a podcast, they have $100 million now that's dead. 16:09 And that's the actual dead money, which is guys like Marshon Lattimore and Jameis Winston still, et cetera. Derek Carr, let's call that dead money. Ryan Ramczyk, he just retired officially. That's dead money. Dead money. 16:20 I'm, I'm gonna call Taysom Hill dead money. He had a ACL tear in December. He's 35 years old. Um, that's 100 million dead. Yeah. 16:28 So when you're saying, "Well, we got a first and two second rounders," ideally, you're gonna pick a first and two second rounders. 16:33 You need guys to come in and play on their rookie contracts and replace the $100 million worth of deadness. 16:41 And then not tie yourself into two fifth year options, two first round contracts at that point, very, you know, to hamper your quarterback, y- your salary cap situation even more. Right, right. 16:49 Now, again, if it's like, well, yeah, we went out there and we got Shador Sanders at the end and we got Mason Graham ninth overall, it's like, I got what you did. I can recognize that. 16:56 But if this is a situation where they get nervous 'cause the Jets are, like, playing with them or the Raiders, you know, Tom Brady's out there mumbling stuff, and they trade up and they lose picks and then they get Shador, that's a fail in my book. 17:07 That's a big time fail. That's a misallocation of resources. That's an overpay. Big overpay. That, that's an over... That's the Saints, though. That's what they do. 17:13 So you had three quarterbacks in the first round, 'cause you had, uh, Dart going to the, uh, Steelers. Yes. I don't know how they emerge out of the first round without a quarterback. I, I just don't know how they do it. 17:25 I mean, when you're looking at Mason Rudolph as your best option after- After-... you traded for DK Metcalf. Yeah. Listen, if you're gonna trade for DK Metcalf, you need a competent quarterback, right? 17:33 You need somebody that, that you can develop, somebody that you can point to and say, "We're gonna try this out. This kid might be the future." 17:41 Because otherwise, what were you, what are you, what are you spending that money for? 17:44 Why did you trade for a wide receiver if you're, you're gonna throw Mason Rudolph or some, you know, fourth round pick, you know, off the streets, uh, in Pittsburgh? Skylar Thompson. [laughs] Whoa. Because [laughs] 17:57 they're going Skylar Thompson. Yeah, I don't know. 17:59 They, they seem to have really put themselves in this box where either they give Aaron Rodgers more money or they give him whatever he needs to be happy, which God only knows if society possesses such a thing, or they make this move, and that's what's interesting. 18:12 So the over under for quarterbacks is 2.5.It's only minus 135, not a l- lot of meat on the bone. You'd go over on that, right? 18:22 I'd go over on that, only because I think when you start looking at, okay, we're gonna lock Cam Ward in to number one- Yeah... you just need two teams to take a quarterback. 18:29 Who saw the Atlanta Falcons taking Michael Penix Jr. last year? [laughs] Right? Like, who saw that coming, right? Right. 18:35 [laughs] You know, you- you're gonna have teams do things, and the Steelers should be in the quarterback market. 18:40 When, when, when you're looking at their options, when, you know, perhaps you're tired of being strung along by Aaron Rodgers. 18:45 Now, this all changes if at 3:30 in the afternoon on Thursday, Aaron Rodgers puts pen to paper and says, "Hey, I'm coming to Pittsburgh." 18:53 This all changes at that point, because I think there's really only three or four teams that could take a quarterback in round one. 19:00 In my scenario, it just so happens that Rodgers doesn't wanna play anymore, or the Steelers get tired of waiting, and they take Dart to try to reset the clock, give Tomlin somebody to help develop and build around. 19:12 We all see that, but we all see Aaron Rodgers trying to upstage the draft, right? It's happened before, right? 19:17 Did- didn't it happen, uh, be- f- the, the, the trade year, where there was all this smoke that he was gonna get traded to the 49ers that popped up on draft night? Do you remember that? Oh, my God. Oh, my God, that... 19:29 It, it's, it's, uh, very cloudy. It's a very cloudy memory. Yeah. When was this? This was still when it was with the Pack? It had to have been 2018 perhaps, 2019 maybe. Oh, my gosh. 19:40 I just remember all of this speculation out of nowhere. "Oh, Aaron Rodgers requested a trade. He could go to the San Francisco 49ers and go home," and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 19:49 So pulling out a, uh, a pen to sign a contract at 3:30 in the afternoon, hours before the draft gets underway, in Green Bay of all places, uh, does, does not seem out of the equation for me. No, it doesn't. It doesn't. 20:01 But you're right, right now. 20:03 I was gonna go, I was go under 2.5, under 2.5, and then you realize the Saints and Steelers have left themselves with so few other options right now that it's hard to envision a scenario where they don't do it. 20:14 Again, they might do something, "Oh, we'll trade back up late in the first round," or something. But it's hard to see them coming out of Thursday night saying, "Oh, this is fine. This is fine. Mason Rudolph's fine. 20:22 Spencer Rattler's fine." If, if not a quarterback, Mike, who, who do you, what direction do you see Pittsburgh going? Is it an offensive tackle like Josh Campbell? Is it, uh, who, who do you see there? 20:31 That's, that's the problem. When you get down there, it's like I don't love them. You know what the Steelers like to do, they like to get another edge rusher. Just get another edge rusher. They are like, you know, T.J. 20:40 Watt noticed that everybody else got an extension. They're in that little corner of hell right now. 20:45 So, like, in, if they had their druthers, they would've had Rodgers signed right now, and they'd be like, "We're gonna put another guy behind Watt, behind the guys we already have, behind Highsmith, behind the, uh, other fellow whose name's escaping me." 20:56 Hayward. Hayward, and there's another edge, he's got a brother who plays, was from Wisconsin. Anyway, uh, Herbig. Herbig, yep. Herbig. Uh, and we'll just, like, do that succession, but you can't do that now. 21:07 You can't do that with DK. You can't do that with Pickens still on the roster. You've gotta make this kind of move. Other thing I noticed is you had three running backs. I do. I do. 21:18 And, uh, again, this is one of these copycat situations. I think the rest of the league looks at the Eagles, the Ravens, and the Packers, and they see what Saquon Barkley, Derrick Henry, and Josh Jacobs did a year ago. 21:29 Running backs might not matter, but they seem to accelerate timelines if you're close or you think that you're close. Uh- Right... the, the Raiders don't have time to wait, right? Like, the Raiders [laughs]... 21:39 I, I have them taking Jeanty at number six. [laughs] Pete Carroll's not- Yeah... getting any younger. You went out, you traded for Geno Smith. That's a move where you're gonna try to make a run right here, right now. 21:49 Get a guy who averages seven yards per carry. Get a guy who pushed for 3,000 rushing yards or whatever it was last year, and all these touchdowns, 26 touchdowns, I think it was, a chains mover and a yardage factory. 22:00 Then I look at Dallas. Sure, they brought in Miles Sanders, but that feels like the ghost of Ezekiel Elliott's past, you know, 2.0. [laughs] So you put Amer- Omarion Hampton there. Uh- Uh-huh... 22:11 Jared gets his running back. He can turn down, turn back the clock to how they made those deep runs in the playoffs, or at least runs to the playoffs back in, like, 2010, '11. 22:20 And then you look at, uh, th- the Denver Broncos, Taylor's oldest time, Sean Payton taking an Ohio State player, TreVeyon Henderson there, so there's your three. 22:29 [laughs] I, that's the one where I pause on, uh, because I think they need help. I think that they might wanna look at the... They were gonna look at tight end. They got Evan Ingram. They might be looking at receiver. 22:39 Henderson is just... I, I, I don't know. I don't, I don't see that one necessarily. But all I ask is, you have Jeanty to the Raiders, that's at minus 125 right now. Yeah. You t- you taking that? I think I'm taking that. 22:51 I think there's two spots. He either goes off the board at number six, or he certainly d- doesn't go off the, he certainly isn't around past the Bears at number 10. I think that- Right, the Bears... 23:03 those are the two spots. See, I like the Bears as the landing place where it's like- Yes... okay, solve the offensive line more or less, have the quarterback, have the coach. Coach is a running-oriented coach in general. 23:14 Now you bring this running back in, and you have enough in place where you can get value out of the running back. I don't know if that's really the case with the Raiders. 23:21 That doesn't mean that's not what they're thinking. Right. And so, and Tom Brady might look at that and say, "Ooh, we, we can win with that." Right, right. 23:29 [laughs] Remember when we had Lawrence Maroney, uh, in New England? [laughs] And that was- You mean by Marion Barber. Ma- oh, gosh. Oh, gosh. Yeah, and so for three running backs over 2.5, that's at plus 220. 23:41 I think I'd take that. I think I, I think I'd have to just throw 10 bucks down and see what happens. Okay. Okay, I'm not taking that one. I'm not, I would go under with the quarterbacks. 23:50 I mean, over with the quarterbacks. I'm not going over 2.5. I'm looking at, like, the edge rusher/defensive line. I don't have it written down, but it's, like, at 8.5. Yeah. That's what I think. 23:59 The, the, the interesting nugget that I heard, I, I don't know if it made it into the column in time, uh, but an agent who represents some of the top receivers in the league told me he doesn't think that even three receivers go round one. 24:11 He thinks there's enough depth in round two and round three and round four at the receiver spot that he doesn't think you're going to see this run on receivers in round one.I, I agree because they're not, the receivers aren't good. 24:27 You're right, there's like all the okay guys who you look at and say, "This could be a wide receiver three, this could be a wide receiver four. This could be the tall guy that we use for match-ups. 24:35 This could be the skinny mini that we use in the slot." But you don't see, uh, with Travis Hunter and the Tr- like, I'm not a big fan of Tratoria McMillan, 24:45 the big- Right, and I like Matthew Golden a lot out of Texas, but you know, I had a conversation with an offensive coach who told me that he's more speed than skill, and that was enough for me to think, "Ah, you know what? 24:55 May- maybe he doesn't go as early as I thought he was gonna go." He's more speed than skill. Uh, McMillan is more like height than speed or skill- Yeah... uh, so to speak. 25:05 Uh, the fellow who, uh, every name is escaping me at this point. I'm telling you, I'm out of my mind at this point. The wide receiver who's always, uh, drawing penalties, uh, uh, uh- Iowa State kid, Jayden Higgins? 25:18 Not Jayden Hi- Higgins. He's, the, the, the two Iowa State kids, one's the fast guy and one's the... I, I'm sorry, I'm trying to look things up on this and it's complete disaster here. Like, like, uh, I... Luther Burden. 25:29 Luther Burden, yeah. Luther Burden. And, and there are some people who are high on him, and it's like this is a Deebo who's even, like, more of a pain in the ass. Bigger diva. A bigger diva, a bigger diva Deebo. Yes. 25:42 A bigger Deebo diva. And like, I don't see that. And then when you get past those guys, I mean, people are gonna talk up Egbuke. Egbuke is a, a wide receiver three in the NFL. He's a slot receiver. 25:52 The straightforward slot receiver. [laughs] I had a coach tell me that he thought that, uh, the, that Ohio State's scheme is what really helped him be as productive as he was in college. I think that's part of it. Yeah. 26:03 I think that's part of it. I think part of it is you had Marvin Harrison for a while now, who is it? Jeremiah Smith, who's the young- Yep... young buck. 26:09 And it's like, yeah, you're the, you're the wide receiver too, you know, you've got this, this, this scheme, you have this program. 26:15 And I mean, I've been like, uh, uh, Mc- uh, Terry McLaurin was a wide receiver three or whatever, but, like, that lightning doesn't strike over and over and over again. Right. 26:25 You, you'll forgive me, I'm trying to look at the over under. I simply will not be able to pull it up. You, if you saw how many, uh, tabs I have open right now, it's embarrassing. 26:32 Oh, you're like me, man, it's the, the, the life of 1,000 tabs. Yeah, so the- 1,000 tabs on my desktop It is nothing but tabs, and I'm seeing little Saints, Florida Lees, and Zoom tabs, and overthecap.com. 26:44 Fandango, what's that doing here? Pornhub. No, uh, but, uh- [laughs] What's that doing here? Um, getting back to, like, the actual on topic here, I gotta ask you, who's most likely to make a big trade? 26:58 Yeah, I think it's Howie. I think it's Howie and the Eagles. And you know, they have something like 22 picks over the next two years, which is just an obscene amount of bites at the apple in two draft classes for them. 27:09 Mm-hmm. And they have this Dallas Goedert situation that's been looming over them all off-season. 27:14 And you know, I spoke to a source back in January leading up to the Senior Bowl who floated the idea that the Eagles could trade Goedert and draft someone like a Jalen Ferguson or like an Elijah Arroyo, you know- Okay... 27:27 early in round two, that that might be somebody. They moved up to get Cooper Dejean early in the second round a year ago. You could see that happen again in the second round at tight end. 27:38 And you know, you talk about, you know, Loveland and Warren as the crème de la crème of this tight end class. That's one of the deeper positions in the draft. 27:45 There are really good tight ends you can get in round two and round three, and I think the Eagles are looking to reset the clock financially because they have so many premium players they have to re-sign over the next couple of years. 27:55 So, you know, while the Saints could go and trade for a quarterback, I think it's more likely you see Howie make a splash. Right, I, I think the Saints still could be in play to do that. 28:03 I was thinking the Eagles, but I was thinking of them in terms of just, like, punting out of the first round where they're at. 'Cause I think you can punt out a 32 right now. Yeah. 28:12 It, go down into, like, the top of the second. And yeah, Ferguson from Oregon would still be there. Mason Taylor from LSU would possibly still be there. There are a couple of these guys who really, like, are... 28:22 It, it's funny 'cause the, the Colts, Ballard was talking about, "I need a three down tight end." Yeah. "I need a three down tight end," which might necessarily, I know you have him, uh, g- getting Loveland. 28:31 I don't know if they consider a Loveland a three down tight end. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. 28:36 But, like, that guy who can get out there and actually be a blocker and a force in a running game, I think Ferguson is a guy who could be that. For sure. 28:42 I mean, he was just a mauler in the running game as a blocker, and had some really impressive numbers, yards after the catch and forced missed tackles at Oregon. 28:49 He'd be a great fit in Indy if they don't go one of the top two. Right. Right. And then, but again, he'd probably a good fit in Philly where there's only so many footballs to go around. And while Goedert- Yeah... 28:58 is a very good weapon in the passing game, he'd be a very good p- weapon in the passing game when everyone's far- worried about a handoff and then you run play action. For sure. Um, so we mentioned Goedert. 29:10 What other, uh, def- Trey Hendrickson I think is a name to watch. I, I, I don't know that the Bengals are gonna move him. That, that almost feels like false bluster to, to... 29:21 I, I don't know why you float that you, you could trade him and he, you know, you can go get an edge rusher when he's one of the premier players at the position across the league, and arguably your best defender. 29:30 But you know, for the right price, I could see Hendrickson getting moved. Yeah, it, that's... First of all, the rhetoric that came out of the Bengals around Hendrickson was weird. Very. Was very weird. 29:42 Like, he might just have- Very... he might have to learn to cope. It's like you don't say that publicly. Right. 29:47 [laughs] Not, not for somebody who's a defensive player of the year caliber player for you and, and the one defensive piece that you had last year, which was the reason why you didn't make the postseason because Joe Burrow couldn't drag them across the finish line. 29:59 Right. Right. And it's like, well, Miles Garrett, he gets an extension. Uh, Max Crosby, he gets an extension. We're waiting on Micah. 30:04 Trey Hendrickson, you're just gonna have to deal with the fact that life might throw you a curveball. Uh, sign Katie Blackburn, the, the general manager- Mm... the, the, the executive vice president of the team. 30:13 Banana pants. And, and we were just talking, it's like, well, Garrett might well say, "Look, here's Abdul Carter. You guys are gonna combine for 30 sacks. This is exciting." 30:21 If you talk to a Lions fan or look at any of the letter- rhetoric coming out of the Lions, it's like, "Where are we gonna get help for Aidan Hutchinson? Why didn't we get help for Aidan Hutchinson? 30:29 Why didn't we get Joey Bosa?" And like, oh, you want pass rushers in pairs and trios. Cincinnati's like, "Well, we can just redraft his replacement."It's like- Right. 30:39 But, but if you're the Lions, Mike, I mean, you can get one of these top edge rushers in the first round. They're, they're within your reach, I would think, right? Right. 30:46 Right, and then since the Lions can do that, and then even when you go down to, where are they, 30th overall, there's gonna be decent quality, you know, maybe it's more of a one-dimensional guy, you could- Or if you view that as your biggest need and your one, one hole that you have to fill- Mm-hmm... 31:00 you can justify trading up to go and get Mike Green or Shemar Stewart or one of these top guys. Right. I would also be on the phone with the Bengals, say, "Let's talk about Hendrickson." Yes. 31:09 Hendrickson sounds terrifying. 31:10 And another little thing that's gonna happen is if the Giants do take Abdul Carter, Thibodeaux should be a more affordable option where you like a day two pick of some kind and you go get Thibbs, and if you put him across from Aidan Hutchinson, he's a pretty scary guy. 31:25 And it's pretty scary in New York with Brian Burns and Abdul Carter. Right. Right. Two awesome. Right. Although I, I would point out like, "Oh, this will be great. 31:33 They'll have a whole bunch of sacks and it'll make up for the offense," that's what we were supposed to say last year with Thibbs and Brian Burns. Yes. That's what we said for all of David Gettleman's era. 31:41 It's like, "Well, with this defensive front, it doesn't matter if Daniel Jones isn't that good, or if, you know, uh, Eli's over the hill." Really the same plan over [laughs] and over again for the Giants. 31:51 For sure, and then you're still sticking your quarterback that you draft next year into an offense where you have one wide receiver, right? Yes. But- Because you don't take Travis Hunter. Right. E- exactly. 32:01 Again, again, it's, it's one offensive playmaker, now it's neighbors. Before that it was Saquon. Before that it was Odell. Yes. [laughs] And a great defensive line, and everything else will just take care of itself. 32:13 This is Giants football for the last, I guess, 13 years since 2011. Mike, what do we have coming up on the Two Deep Zone through the draft? 32:19 Well, Two Deep Zone on Friday morning you'll see a first round r- uh, update, and then I catch my breath. I catch my breath- Okay... days in. 32:29 And then Monday and Tuesday of the following week, the draft performance assessments. They're draft grades like you, you would expect. 32:34 But one thing I don't do, I will be like chatting with my readers and subscribers, et cetera. You're not gonna see me like on Saturday going wacky trying to reset the board or things like that. 32:44 I'm gonna do things quietly, I'm gonna have a cocktail or two along the way, catch our breath, but there'll still be plenty of coverage. Let me guess, you're not catching your breath. 32:52 I, I don't expect to catch my breath. [laughs] I will probably, I will probably put out some, uh, some, some round one grades on Friday morning. Good. 33:01 Uh, best picks, picks that leave me scratching my head, some letter grades assigned along the way, and still trying to map out the rest of the plan, uh, but certainly some big-picture takeaways for the column on Monday morning. 33:14 Oh, it'll... It's gonna be amazing. How, how do you spend a draft? How do you do it? Before- Yeah, I, I actually activate the command center with the three TVs. I got the three- Mm-hmm... networks to watch one thing. 33:23 Mm-hmm. Uh, the NFL draft in the, in the basement. The, the wife and kids go and have a great day at the playground or play with the neighbor kids in the backyard. 33:32 I'm left to my own devices with Nitro cold brew coffees and bottles of water- [laughs]... and junk food to- Yes... uh, go, go through and fuel the, the content that's being created. 33:44 What's, what's the junk food of choice? Yeah. I've, I've been on a kick. Uh, the, the, the animal crackers, the Barnum & Bailey animal crackers. 33:53 I can, you know, shove like handfuls of them in my mouth and go through a bag before you snap your fingers. Uh, in a perfect world they sell these great like soft pretzel nuggets at Costco- Oh... 34:03 with the beer cheese dip. Yeah. You, you fire some of those up- Absolutely... on, uh, on, on Saturday at around noon before pick one, and you can dip and go. Is it... So how about you? 34:14 Is there, is there a cocktail involved dur- during the proceedings? Uh, during the first round, no. I stay sober until everything is totally written a- a- along the way. 34:22 Triscuits used to be my poison, just sitting there eating Triscuits. It gets, it gets messy. Yes. It gets messy. Yes. I wouldn't want a live camera on there during it, but I'll tell you what, I, I... 34:32 Like I said, I catch my breath a little bit. Friday night I'll be chatting. I'll be on, um, Blue Sky, maybe a little bit on Threads. I'll be on the DVO8 Discord. I'll be in with the, the Two Deep Zone subscribers. 34:43 Then, because I don't write for Saturday morning, it's up to you. You do, you do what you want. You look like, I think you're a little under the weather right now. You might wanna pace yourself a little bit. 34:50 Tried to have my Michael Jordan game on this podcast, so a little under the weather. Tried to have the Michael Jordan game. I'm not sure how that turned out, but we're here. We did it. We pulled it off. 34:57 Well, but I've got a special... I should have brought it out here. I've got a special deluxe Chimay Quad. Oh. That's the Saturday night? That'll be the Saturday night cocktail to say, "This is done." 35:08 Of course, Sunday morning I'm writing grades all day. Yes. And so you hit pause, you look at it, and then you discover, wait a minute, I didn't even realize the Cardinals drafted 38 guys, or some crazy sh- Right... 35:18 stat that like, uh, that, that like you don't even notice while the draft is live. Exactly. Well, this has been a lot of fun, Mike. The draft is one of the 10 pulls of the year. It's a lot of fun every year. 35:27 Go ahead and subscribe to Two Deep Zone on Substack. Follow Mike on Blue Sky @miketanyer. You can check me out on Blue Sky @mattlombardo. Subscribe to Between the Hash Marks on Substack. 35:36 And go ahead and leave us those five-star reviews in the Apple Podcast store if you enjoy the pod. We'll read them on the air, even if you rip us and say, "Matt, what are you thinking with all these running backs?" 35:46 Or, "You, you, you look like you just rolled out of bed with the flu," well, I kind of did. [laughs] Oh. 35:51 We'll still read it, but please leave us the five stars because they help us grow the show and get found in the algorithm and all those things. Absolutely. Be a big, big help. 35:58 By the way, folks, whenever I'm sick, I just cancel the podcast. 36:01 Matt is really, really pushing [laughs] himself here, uh, to come out here and be with us, and, and, and I appreciate it, and I'm sure the listeners appreciate it too. It's been a lot of fun. 36:10 Mike, I'll talk to you next week. Enjoy the draft. Enjoy the draft.
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