Transcript 0:00 Welcome on in to another live and action-packed edition of the Between the Hash Marks podcast. 0:05 As always, I'm Matt Lombardo, joined by my friend, colleague, mentor, and the purveyor of the Too Deep Zone, Mike Tanier is here, as he is each and every week. 0:13 And Mike, as I said on the Nightcap Recap late on Sunday night, this really felt like a redemption Sunday of sorts across the NFL. But how are you doing today? I'm doing well, but I heard a w- wild rumor- Uh-oh... 0:27 that you were in the running for the Penn State job. Is this true? Not, not officially in the running. 0:34 Um, but, but I will say this, if we wanted to just kinda get this out there, uh, I, I was r- surprised, but not stunned, that James Franklin was fired, especially after losing three straight games, the last two, uh, as double-digit favorites against UCLA and Northwestern, of all people, of all teams. 0:51 But- [laughs]... 0:52 I'll, I'll say this, J- James has always been really good to me professionally, as far as, you know, a- as if I need a quote on a Penn State player in the NFL for a story I'm working on, always quick to reply. 1:04 I, I give him a lot of credit for what they built up there during his tenure. But on a personal note, always been really good to me and my family. During Penn State's- Oh... 1:12 Pro Day a couple years ago, invited me into the office. We sat down, uh, broke down practice tape, talked about football, gave some, like, behind-the-scenes things that are happening with the program. 1:23 Um, when, when he found out that it was my father's first game up there, my dad and I share season tickets, when it was my dad's first game back, you know, after suffering his stroke, which he's fine from, fully recovered from, but his first game back at the stadium, he texted me, said, "Hey, make sure your dad has a good time. 1:38 Give him a hug for me." Always been gracious with my family, per- personally and professionally. So, um, i- interesting mixed feelings there after the firing, but wish him and his family all the best going forward. 1:51 That's a part of this we don't often see when these coaches get fired. And sometimes we think, "Well, he had it coming," et cetera. But there is a human side of this. 1:58 I always do like to say, though, and this applies to Brian K- Callahan as well, i- coaches at that level don't so much get fired as transferred. Yes. 2:07 You- they'll be a offensive coordinator someplace else, defensive coordinator someplace else, three years from now have another opportunity, and maybe it was time for a change at Penn State. 2:17 Yeah, I, I think that the last two losses, there was some apathy and certainly more than enough anger at Penn State to justify moving on. 2:24 Uh, but it is kinda whiplash-inducing when you think about going to the College Football Playoff semifinal a year ago. 2:31 You take a lead in double overtime against Oregon, the number 17 in the country, three weeks ago, a- and then gone. It's just a whole new era of college football. 2:41 Uh, a couple losses and you gotta start looking, re- really looking over your shoulder. You know, it's funny because I was just texting back and forth with a colleague, who will remain nameless. 2:51 Okay, it was Jarrett Bailey. And he, he was talking about, you know, Bill's, the Buffalo Bills. The Buffalo Bills need to burn everything to the ground right now. They need to fire everyone. 3:03 He, he, you know, he's where Eagles fans were on Friday morning. He's where I kinda was on Friday morning. But, you know, I love the idea of the Buffalo Bills, perennial powerhouse, always in the AFC Championship game. 3:15 Started the season one of the greatest comebacks in the world against the Ravens team that at the time still looked very good. Lose two straight, kinda have some stumbles. Let's fire everybody. 3:25 Get McDermott out of there, right? Get McDermott, and Brady, and I'm a little bit of a Brady skeptic. Get Brady out of there, and I forget the defensive coordinator's name off the top of my head. 3:34 Get them all out of there, and get Sirianni out of there. Because, as we all know, there's like 300 fa- fabulous coaches just working at Wawa right now, uh, working at Rural Farms, waiting for their opportunity. 3:45 Um, when, you know, Brian Callahan, he's available. Is that, is that [laughs] is that who you really want? I, to turn it around, I think we'll probably talk about the Bills a little bit. 3:55 It was a rough Thursday night in greater Philadelphia. Not just the Eagles, but the Phillies. The Flyers, I think, lost too. It was, it was, it was absolute chaos. 4:05 Um, after this Sunday, it seemed like, uh, Armageddon for the Eagles. After this Sunday, a temperature check for, like, Eagles fans. Is everyone a little calmer? 4:15 Not just because time has passed, but because everybody lost. The Lions, the Commanders, the Bills, everyone has lost right now. Yeah, we're gonna put a lot of these teams under the microscope. 4:23 We're gonna look into some of the upstarts who broke out. We're gonna talk about the Eagles. Yeah. A little bit of housekeeping first, if you will. 4:30 If you enjoy Mike and my's rapport, and of course Mike's temperament and, a- and the ability to seamlessly weave superhero references alongside analytics deep dives into Too Deep Zone, make sure you subscribe to the Too Deep Zone on Substack. 4:44 You get walkthrough every Monday. It, it's my, my coffee companion each and every Monday after getting my daughter on the bus. So I'll sit down and read a walkthrough. So make sure you subscribe there. 4:55 If you enjoy my analysis and insider reporting, subscribe to Between the Hash Marks on Substack. You can check out the show on my YouTube channel, @MattLombardo975. 5:04 And if you listen to this show on Apple Podcasts, click subscribe. Subscribe in the Apple Podcast store. Leave us a five-star rating and review. Those reviews really do help grow the show and make it easier to find. 5:14 It makes it easier for us to get top marquee guests onto the show. 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We hope everyone's enjoying it as much a- as we are. 6:01 Uh, Mike, I'm gonna spin your question that you just asked me back to you. 6:04 I'm gonna give you the floor here, because I, I, I thought that that Thursday night loss tore open a lot of the fabric of what had been holding a, a, a really rickety Eagles team together with a lot of finger-pointing, a lot of blame, a lot of questions, a lot of concerns going into it. 6:20 Um, but, but, but obviously after Sunday, you're right, I think the landscape has changed. 6:25 So where are you at right now on the Eagles and on some of these other contending teams on the NFC side of the bracket?The Eagles have problems to solve. Yeah. 6:35 But many, many of the problems are emotional problems that could be solved with conversations, and the schematic problems that could be solved with, you know, whatever you think of the offensive coordinator. 6:46 Sirianni can put his foot down. Hurts and Brown can say, "We want it to be this way." They can go back and fix this. These are fixable problems. I think what the rest of week six showed is there is time. 6:56 There is time to fix it. There is no undefeated team running away with anyth- everything right now. So the Eagles will have that opportunity if they choose to take that opportunity. 7:06 Um, when I look at some of the other teams' losses, uh, uh, losses, I say, "Well, they have problems. How solvable are those problems?" Commanders will get guys back healthy, like McLaurin. That's solvable. 7:17 Lions, the injuries are kind of all over the place, but, like, we know the Lions are good. They just lost to a really, really good team. Solvable. Niners, I have no idea. 7:26 They might not- they might have an existential crisis right now due to injuries. Eagles don't have that existential crisis. 7:31 They have to actually start talking to each other and start getting real about making things look the way they looked last year, the way they looked three years ago, the way they looked for the first 10 games the previous year. 7:41 They know what it's supposed to look like. It's the same people. They should be able to get it done. 7:45 Yeah, I, I think that what this does is it puts the microscope squarely on Nick Sirianni in a way that it probably shouldn't- Mm-hmm... 7:52 for a team that, you know, went to and, and won the Super Bowl last year, and has been- Right... to two Super Bowls over the last three. But, but this is not an unfamiliar problem for him. 8:02 Coming off the Super Bowl loss against Kansas City, people in Philadelphia still have battle scars of that 2023 season, the 10 and one collapse, to losing home field advantage, to losing on the road in Tampa Bay in the playoffs in the span of, of s- eight weeks. 8:16 But, but the, the problem with Nick Sirianni is he's not the offensive play caller. He's not the architect of the defense. He's essentially the coach of the vibes. A- and- Yeah... the vibes are great- Right... 8:27 when you have your 2,000-yard running back running behind the best offensive line in football, and an opportunistic veteran defense that's creating turnovers and you're scoring off of them. 8:36 It's easy to be the vibes head coach in that moment. But as- Right... 8:39 we saw in 2023, when everything unwound and they wound up benching, um, the defensive coordinator Sean Desai in favor of Matt Patricia, it did not go well for Nick Sirianni. They, they lost the room. 8:52 They lost their footing at the top of the conference, and the tailspin began. I, I, I agree with you. They don't have the existential injury crisis that the 49ers have. 9:00 They don't have the same concerns we're gonna touch on with the Buffalo Bills. But they do have big problems that they can't seem to spring Saquon Barkley open. He's averaging 3.4 yards per carry. 9:09 They do have big problems that even when they're making a concerted effort to get A.J. Brown and DeVonta Smith involved, it, it goes through fits and starts throughout the course of a game. 9:18 It isn't sustainable for four quarters or week to week. And it just seems like they don't know what they are. They need to- Right... figure out what their identity is. Right. That falls on Nick Sirianni. 9:27 A- and at least looking at this from my view, he now has about 11 weeks to answer that question and figure out what they are before you start looking around and thinking, "Okay, this has happened twice in three years." 9:40 Yeah. I- is this the guy to keep the train on the tracks week in, week out, year in, and year out? The man is never off the hot seat. I haven't gotten an oil change since the Super Bowl. 9:52 The Super Bowl happened within an oil change, okay? But he's never off the hot seat. 9:57 But a- again, I, I'm not saying things don't have to get done, but I think Sirianni would be given the order to bring in an offensive ca- counsel URA from the outside, from the, you know, the Mike McDaniels or whoever will be available when the time comes. 10:10 Um, were you caught off guard, guard by Zadarius Smith's retirement? A- and yeah. Yeah, it, it kinda seemed out of nowhere, right? 10:19 And, and, and that's what kinda triggered my brain back to that 2023 season, because that's the type of thing and the type of finger-pointing you saw- Yeah... in that locker room. And let me just be clear here. 10:29 I, I, I'm not saying that as we sit here on October 14th that Nick Sirianni is on the hot seat. No. 10:34 But, but if they wind up finishing the season, you know, under 500 or around 500, and just sneak into the playoffs, I think conversations at that point have to be had, only because he doesn't get to fall back on, "Hey, we have a top five offense, and I'm the- Mm-hmm... 10:51 offensive play caller," or, "We lead- Right... the league in red zone defense," when he didn't build the defense, right? 10:58 And, and some of this has to fall on Howie Roseman, because some of the off-season moves and decisions have not worked out. Having- Right... 11:04 Darius Slay instead of Kelly Ringo i- is probably a little bit different in that game. Yeah. Right? If you have a little bit better depth along that defensive line, you can withstand losing a Jalen Carter. 11:15 I understand the, the long-term approach of salary cap management. Right. 11:19 But I think that they might not be as deep as maybe we thought they were going to be in some key spots, as it's starting to play out throughout the course of this, uh, first half of the season. 11:28 Yeah, well, the injury rash at the edges is kinda like, well, you're gonna be down to these guys. Then Zadarius Smith was like, "I, I'm playing too many snaps," or whatever he's thinking. 11:37 So he nopes out, so that's one thing. Uh, at cornerback it is like, well, you, the guy isn't there. The guy you think is out there isn't there, so you bring in a Dory Jackson and J- and a Ja' arent. 11:49 It's like, well, those are who, who you're going to bring in. And you have Kelly Ringo that you're trying to develop, and you drafted two guys. You can't draft three of them. 11:56 So some of that is these problems should be solvable. They shouldn't be as big a problem if the offense is doing its job. Um, so but again, you can turn around and say, "Look at the NFC. Look at the NFL." Right. 12:08 Everyone's... The Bills are asking these questions right now, you know? The, we talk about the, in Philly, the need for an edge rusher. The Lions [chuckles] are saying, "Who"... 12:17 But again, the same question they've had since February: "Who besides Aidan Hutchinson can get to the quarterback?" And now Aidan's getting there two steps after the ball's out of [chuckles] Patrick Mahomes' hands. 12:26 Right, and if we're looking at the water bottle scenario, whether this thing's half empty or half full-Only one division in football has all four teams over 500. A- and that's the NFC North, right? Right. 12:38 And, and you look at the NFC South, it, it's basically Tampa Bay and everybody else, is if we're being honest with ourselves and we weren't just trying to drum up pre-season narratives, that's what it was always going to be- Yes... 12:50 in, in the South. I mean, you can make a case for the Falcons after that win last night, but, but I, I still love Tampa there. The flip side of that coin, and the glass being half full for the Eagles is, 13:00 I don't know that anybody wants to or is built to win the NFC East right now, right? 13:05 I mean, you look at the way they, Washington lost that game with an untimely turnover, we're gonna touch on it a little, little bit here. They're 500. 13:13 The Cowboys are two, three, and one, losing a game that they probably should have won- Right... based on paper alone, uh, in Carolina. A- and the Giants, they punched them in the mouth. Who knows- Yeah... 13:23 how sustainable that's going to be with Jaxson Dart and Cam Scatabo, but it seems like the vibes are there. It seems like confidence- Mm-hmm... is be- getting confidence. 13:31 Who knows if they decide to be buyers and go get a couple weapons. But there's no clear-cut favorite, in my opinion, in the NFC East, and the Eagles don't have the injuries that are causing the issues. 13:41 It's just a matter of, can Kevin Patullo right the ship from a schematic standpoint, and can Nick Sirianni keep the locker room together? And it seems like- Right... 13:52 the, the second part of that question i- is the most difficult task right now. They seem like they're related questions. Because if- Absolutely... 13:59 Patullo figures it out, then everyone's going to be fine again, 'cause they, they've been through this before. Right. And let's switch gears a little bit and talk about the- Yeah... 14:09 the game last night at, at, at Landover, Commanders and Bears. Um, are, are you buying into Caleb Williams being fixed? Are you buying into- No... the culture change? 14:19 [laughs] Are you buying into any of it, or you're selling all of it? It's fu- it's funny 'cause I, you know, I, I get up, and, like, I didn't see the second half of the game live. I, I'm, I'm checking it. 14:27 Uh, the, I'm going through the replay, and then I'm going through the, the reporting on it, and it's like, "This proves that there's a culture change with the Bears." And I, I think I wrote about it. 14:38 It's like, well, last year's culture was basically this is a burning meth lab. 14:44 [laughs] So there has been a culture change from a burning meth lab where they're trying to throw the drug paraphernalia on the fire and maybe, uh, throw each other on and run in the other direction, to, "Hey, we're a football team, and we try." 14:58 So there has been a culture change, I can say that. As for Cal getting fixed, that looked like every Caleb Williams game from last year. There were a couple of highlights. 15:06 The biggest highlight was a guy misses a tackle on DeAndre Swift. And there was a lot of hold the ball, don't like what you see, run to the right, run to the right, run to the right, chuck it. 15:16 Maybe it's complete, maybe it bounces off a defender, maybe you take a sack before you chuck it. So I don't see anything here that suggests there's forward momentum. 15:26 It was a weird back-and-forth game where the Commanders kept fumbling in the backfield. Right. And, and the fumble in the backfield, the giveaway at the end kind of- Yeah... 15:35 opened the door for the Bears to go down the field and not, not that far, but kick the game winning field goal. I will say this about Caleb Williams, I think there's still a long way to go. Mm-hmm. 15:43 But I think you're starting to see incremental progress. 15:45 I mean, the one play that jumps out to me is the scramble towards the end and, and having the awareness and the wherewithal to slide in bounds, forcing Dan Quinn to take the timeout. 15:54 Situational awareness seems a little bit better. Okay. He's also not really getting much help from his receivers. I mean, there were a couple of really terrible drops. I think one was by DeAndre Swift. 16:04 Well, it was the, the rookie, uh, Manungai, the running back. If he catches the one- Okay... pass on third down, he's probably going 25, 30 yards 'cause he's one-on-one with a linebacker. 16:13 Um, th- the other one was a, a third down drop by Alamada Zaccheaus that would've moved the chains. I don't think he's getting much help yet consistently from the receivers. I think he's getting better. 16:24 There's still a lot of room to grow. But I will say, it, it seems like there is not, if not a culture change already in place with Ben Johnson, I think it's starting to take root. Mm. 16:34 Because it, it's not just the offense that's getting it done. They, they created three turnovers last night, and they turned them into 13 points. A touchdown- Right... a field goal, and then the game-winning field goal. 16:45 I mean, that's huge. 16:46 I- if you can create turnovers, that's one thing, but I don't know if there's anything more potent than points off of turnovers because you're swinging possessions, you're swinging momentum on the scoreboard. 16:56 You're, you're determining, at times, as last night, the outcome of the game. And it's not kind of fluky for them. They're plus eight. They're leading the, the league with a plus eight turnover differential. 17:05 So th- they're creating a lot of takeaways, and the offense is getting it done in a way that we didn't see Matt Eberflus a- and that defense do a year ago, and certainly not the offense take advantage of them the way that they are right now. 17:18 You know, I'll say this much. On the giveaway side of that plus eight, they're not giving the ball away. There's not a lot of go for balls. There was like one turnover where the throw wasn't bad. 17:28 You're not getting the sacks that lead to strip sacks. It's a more ball control offense. 17:32 Maybe Williams hasn't figured all these things out, but it's not so much I'm gonna go run back and forth three times and get stripped. That's helpful on that end. 17:40 Defensive side of it, I mean, they're a team with a pretty good secondary and all. I, it's, you know, [laughs] I, it- you, you get these come from behind victories. 17:49 That was a pretty good one last night, but it wa- there were weird elements to it. It was an injury-r- prone team. The previous week was at, who'd they beat the previous week? Was it the Raiders? 17:58 We're talking about the Raiders. Yeah, they went, went to Las Vegas and beat them. Yeah. Yeah, we're talking about the Raiders. 18:03 Let's continue to gather information on the team because we can ta- say all these things, but then if you say, "Well, what are realistic expectations for the Bears?" 18:12 We would probably both land on maybe they can squeak in as the seventh seed. [laughs] And that's kind of where it was last year for much of the year. Maybe they can squeak in as the seventh seed. 18:23 So I, I don't wanna talk about progress or development or culture until there's a, the, here's the avenue to the playoffs. 18:30 I, I still don't see that for them right nowI, I, I think that what we're seeing right now that we didn't see a year ago is that the play on the field is validating the pre-season expectations. Because, you know- Okay... 18:40 I had the Bears as the seventh, maybe pushing for the sixth seed in the playoffs going into this year. Mm-hmm. 18:46 And I think that that's kind of, i- if you just watch the games, it seems like that's kind of where this thing could be trending, especially going back to the thought process of there being no real complete and dominant teams. 18:58 I mean, if they catch- Right... Detroit on a week where they have as many injuries as they did against Kansas City, you know, may- maybe they pull off an upset there. 19:05 A- if they can neutralize Micah Parsons and the pass rush the way that the Bengals somehow managed to do with Joe Flacco, a statuesque 40-year- It, it, it-... 19:15 a 40-year-old quarterback- Well, you could say this about every team in the NFL. For sure. For sure. Right. 19:19 [laughs] For sure, but they weren't, they weren't able to, they, they weren't built to do those things last year, right? I mean, the- Right... there was no offensive identity last year. 19:26 There were too many turnovers- Right... last year. The defense seemed to be giving up by the time they fired- Right... Matt Eberflus on Black Friday. 19:33 I, I'm just saying that it seems like from where they were when we're talking about- Mm-hmm... 19:36 are they going to be a top five, top 10 pick in the draft to buying, like, a potential wild card team, I think that's the incremental progress that they're showing. 19:45 I'll, I'll, I'll take that, because again, they are no longer a meth lab on fire. [laughs] Right. Absolutely not. Not only has the me- the meth lab been, like, the... They're now like a playground or something. 19:55 They're something nice. A little coffee shop. They're no longer a meth lab on fire. Yeah, and I think that if you're a Chicago Bears fan, y- you gotta, you gotta like that, right? And- Yeah... 20:04 going into the trade deadline, Ryan Poles has been one of the more aggressive general managers over the last couple years. He might not need to be so aggressive, because he seemed to have fixed the offensive line. 20:14 Um, but- Mm-hmm... if you can go and get a receiver to, to add to that group. Or you go and add a corner- Yeah... or a linebacker. You could add a rece- I know DJ Moore got hurt, so maybe that's the opening. 20:24 They have so many guys, and that's one of the things where you say, "Well, he hasn't been getting enough help," and yeah, there were drops and all. 20:30 There are so many guys, but you, you say, "Oh, we got a DJ Moore, and we, and we drafted the kid out of Missouri, and we drafted Loveland, and we still have Kmet, and we have Swift, and we have Edounsvir from last year." 20:41 At some point, you, you gotta say, "We're, we're rolling with what we got. This is, this is the investment." For sure. For sure. 20:48 [laughs] Un- unless you keep getting all these drops that you've gotten over the la- last night, and you decide that you wanna try to, to elevate- Right. Yeah, yeah... and be more than a wild card team. 20:55 But, uh, I, I think the one team that, that probably should be buying i- is the, the team that sparked this whole conversation at the top of the show. Mm-hmm. The Bills? 21:06 What the hell was that from the Bills on Monday Night in Atlanta? What, what the hell was that? Uh, the, the Falcons tried everything they could to Falcons that away- Yeah... 21:14 in the fourth quarter, and the Bills just decided, "You know what? W- w- we're not up for, for, for capitalizing on those, those things." They tried to Falcon it away at halftime, right? Yeah. 21:25 Yeah, it's like a, uh, there was a missed field goal, right? And then there was diving for the pylon at zero, zero, zero. 21:32 Like, that could've been b- and, and I don't know how much you wanna put blame on anybody, but, but look at, the, the Bills were getting the crap beat out of them. Yeah. 21:40 They can't stop the run at all, and this is a problem. Because, uh, Aaron Schatz and I were talking on his podcast, and it's like, "Hey, you know what? Oliver is back. Milano is back. Problem solved in the running game." 21:50 Oh, no it isn't. No. Oh, no it isn't. Not even close. Not, not even close. I mean, I mean, how much of this is Bijan Robinson, though? 21:57 Like- Because you look at Bijan Robinson, one of the most elusive and explosive running backs in the NFL. 22:02 I, I, I think that we wanna talk numbers and explosiveness, you can talk to me all you want about Jonathan Taylor, you'd probably win that argument. But from a- Yeah... skill set standpoint- Yeah... 22:10 and an elusive standpoint, a- and he w- a guy who's going to kill you in the open field standpoint- Mm-hmm... I don't think anybody's better in this league right now than Bijan Robinson. Averaging 5.8 yards per carry. 22:20 He's scored two rushing touchdowns. He's caught a, a passing touchdown so far this year. Mm-hmm. 22:25 So as, as much as, like, for the last three weeks we've kind of pointed to the Bill's rushing defense and said, "Hey, there's the weak link. There's- Mm-hmm... 22:31 what Brandon Beane might need to go and, and, and upgrade at the deadline," T.J. Sanders is still out, so that's still a pretty big hole- Right... up front from a defensive line perspective. 22:41 You played against Bijan Robinson. I- is that the, the catalyst to make you pick up the phone and start shopping for defensive line help? Or, or, or- It-... what are you doing here if you're the Bills? 22:52 Well, uh, there's so many teams who have run defense issues right now. Like, all around the league, like, our run defense, Eagles c- fans are worried about their run defense, uh, w- when Carter's hurt certainly. 23:03 And, and the Bills, it's top of the line. And I was watching this morning, because I am a masochist. I hate myself. I was watching the Raiders-Titans game, okay? Why would you put yourself through that? 23:15 I, I guess I wanted to look and see just what it looked like, what finally got them to say, "Okay, Brian Callahan. [laughs] This guy's gotta freaking go." Um, but Jeffrey Simmons 23:26 of the Titans, I think, like, half the teams in the NFL who are worried about their run defense would be calling, uh, whoever this dude is who runs the Titans right now. He's got a goofy name. 23:36 It's, uh, uh, Bazinga or something like that. And, and, and, like, what's it gonna take? 'Cause Simmons is out there being an absolute hobgoblin, doing everything he can to try to win these games. He's a veteran. 23:47 He's, like, a tone-setting type of guy. Like, like, the trade deadline, like, like, this team is toast. Get him out of there. He's probably miserable. Talk to his agent. 23:56 See if you can, like, like, help broker the deal here. Uh, because I think he would help a team like the Bills or about five other teams. 24:01 The Lions could use another guy on their, on their run defense, or just somebody to eat up some blocks. Let me ask you another question, though, about the Bills. What is their offensive... 24:11 I, I know I went on Brady last week. What is their offensive identity besides Josh Allen is good, and therefore something, something win?Yeah, you know what it should be? It, it should be funneling through James Cook. 24:24 It, it really- Mm-hmm... should be, because they're built to run the ball really, really well. Um, but he's only had over 20 carries twice so far this year. He's averaging- Mm-hmm... five yards per rushing attempt. 24:35 He has five touchdowns. The identity- Mm-hmm... if you're Joe Brady should be, "We're going to feed this guy 25 plus carries." Mm-hmm. "We have a mobile quarterback that we're gonna design play action concepts off of. 24:47 They're gonna lead into zone read runs with Josh Allen's mobility. We're, we're gonna create opportunities for the tight ends based off play action." It, it should be the James Cook experience, but it just- Mm-hmm... 25:00 hasn't been. And, you know, we can talk all we want about the issues up front and whether they should go and trade for a defensive tackle. 25:07 I don't think you're prying Quinnen Williams away from the Jets, trading to a division rival. [laughs] That's another good one. Yeah. But I'd probably pick up the phone and see if I could get him for a second-round pick. 25:15 Hey, hey- You're-... you're rebuilding. You're not winning any time soon. How about a second rounder to help put us over the top, right? I, I, I doubt it happens- Mm-hmm... but you have to make the call. 25:24 They need receiver help, because I think they were betting on Keon Coleman making a leap that he hasn't made. Right. Kodiac here is really nice after the catch. I don't think he creates a lot of separation on his own. 25:35 Right. But if you wanna talk about what you need to do, it should be running the ball, and I think it should be working the phones, burning down the phone lines. Hell, call Howie Roseman about A.J. 25:45 Brown and see if they're, if he really is available, if you can get him. They need receiver help up there because Josh Allen can't do it by himself. Yeah, that's... 25:54 The one thing is, I don't know if that wide receiver one is just hanging around right now. Like, I look around, like, like Jalen Waddle, no. Uh, Garrett Wilson, you just paid him. That's like, shut out the lights. 26:04 Uh, Calvin Ridley, good God no, because he'll screw up and drop four passes in the AFC Championship game. You can see that going down the line. 26:13 Um, but, you know, Cook- Are the Ravens dead, are the Ravens dead enough- Are they?... that if you call Rashod, that you could pry away a one-year rental DeAndre Hopkins? 26:23 You know, could, can, can you pry him away for a fifth-round pick if the Ravens realize this just ain't gonna happen this year, we have too many injuries on both sides of the ball? I don't know. 26:32 I somehow don't, don't see it, but maybe, maybe if he called for Jerry Judy or something like that. I, I, I don't know if he even helps, because that's like getting Amari Cooper, which is what they tried last year. 26:44 Um, Davis, the backup to Cook, also had a pretty good, a big run, he had a touchdown in that game. 26:50 But to what you were speaking of, there was a sequence, where I think it was like midway through the second quarter, where it's like, okay, hand off to Cook, hand off to Cook, hand off to Cook. 26:59 They were doing their two tight end look and everything like that. I mean, six yards, six yards, eight yards, whatever. Then they hand off to him once, okay, gain of two, and it was like, "What do we do now?" 27:13 Let's try bombs and then scrambles and things like that. And it's like, y- just, you know, do it until it stops working, and then maybe do it one or two more times, et cetera. 27:23 Because it's just, it, it's almost like clockwork where it's like, okay, uh, Brady's decided he doesn't feel like running the ball [laughs] anymore, and Allen isn't sure who to throw to. 27:34 And l- it seemed like, uh, Morris had their number yesterday. They're dialing up blitzes, they're doing stunts, and they're getting to Josh Allen, and, and that, it shouldn't be that easy. 27:44 It should not be that easy to stop the Buffalo Bills. Right. A- and in fairness, they're virtually tied with the Falcons as the number one rushing offense in the NFL. So- Mm-hmm... 27:53 but, but, but is that just a, a testament to the identity not working? I- is it not having enough creative concepts playing off of, uh, the rushing offense? Mm. 28:02 And that would fall on Joe Brady not, not adapting, not evolving, not expanding? Or does it just come down to- But-... 28:09 they don't have the personnel to do anything more than run the football, so if you take that away, given the injuries on defense, y- you're gonna be outscored. I refuse to believe it. I refuse to believe it. 28:21 Like, there's, uh, Shakir's a good enough ballplayer. Coleman brings enough to the table. Tight ends are good. It doesn't seem like that should be the case. I know they lost Palmer last night early in the game. 28:30 It doesn't seem to be the case of just be like, "Well, we can't do anything." Not with Josh Allen, not with that offensive line. 28:36 Could you, could you conceive a situation, a scenario where they trade for somebody like Dontayvion Wicks, and does they, Dontayvion Wicks move the needle enough? 28:43 Because obviously Green Bay's seeing Matthew Golden emerge. You're gonna get Christian Watson back maybe as soon as this week. Uh, uh, you have Daubs, who, you know, for... 28:54 As, after I pegged him as a potential trade candidate, there's now whispers- Yeah... that there could be an extension in the works to keep- Right... him and Watson and Golden as the big three. Mm-hmm. 29:03 Treyden Reed's gonna come back from an injury in a few weeks, uh, you know, with the ankle and the collarbone. 29:08 Dontayvion Wicks, does he move the needle enough to trade an asset to try to spark some sort of explosiveness into, into that receiving corps? He drops the needle. Uh, Dontayvion Wicks, 29:20 like, I know he hasn't been dropping passes as much, but he was, like, a non-factor in the game. Obviously Golden has pushed past him. It's more of the same. Get, he's just another Josh Palmer. 29:30 Well, here's the guy with the tool from the other team. We got the guy who wasn't, like, he was the reason Justin Herbert isn't really, like, reaching his potential, so we bring in Palmer. Hey, why isn't Jordan Love... 29:40 Get, get, get Wicks. Bring him in. I don't know if that guy is out there. If they make one of these trades, fine, I'll look at it. And, but again, it, it boils down to, "Hey, last year, we're bringing Amari Cooper in. 29:49 He certainly has something left in the tank." Hello. He certainly did not. By the way, he's, he's available right now too, isn't he? He's just sitting on... He's having coffee with L- Beckham Jr. 29:59 somewhere talking about the old days. So, yeah, I don't know. 30:04 If I, if I'm the Bills, like, I, I'll bring in one other defender and just try to mur- murder people on the defensive line, and then just play, you know, aggro ball. 30:12 And, and their problems might be gashed open even wider in two weeks when they come back from the bye a- and you have world beater Rico Dowdle staring, staring at you from across the line of scrimmage. 30:24 And, and suddenly an offense that just wants to bash you over the head with the running game, and they're doing it- Mm-hmm... well, and they're winning because of it. Yeah. 30:32 And I'm trying to figure out howRico Dowdle was a number two running back three weeks ago that no one gave two craps on the wind about. 30:42 That he was like, "Oh, Chuba Hubbard is hurt, but, you know, go on your fantasy waiver and put a waiver in for Rico Doodle." And now Rico Doodle is Thanos. Okay? So I know his name is Dowdle, I'm just, I'm just being... 30:56 I, uh, you know. Uh, but, uh, how? What happened? I think he looked at the schedule and he saw that they were playing the Cowboys in two weeks- [laughs]... 31:06 and I think it pissed him off enough that they said, "Hey, go try to get paid. We don't wanna pay you." 31:10 [laughs] That he decides, "I, I'm gonna take out some of these frustrations on the Miami Dolphins," 200-plus yard rushing game, "and now I'm really gonna take out my anger on Jerry Jones and the Micah Parsons-less Dallas Cowboys," and he just runs his way into the record book. 31:25 According to Next Gen Stats, I wrote this in the column on Monday- Mm-hmm... he rushed for 122 yards after contact, which is the most by a Panthers running back since Next Gen Stats came into being in 2016. 31:38 And he now, over the past two weeks, he surpassed Christian McCaffrey for the most ru- yards from scrimmage by a Panthers running back, beating Christian McCaffrey's record. 31:48 He now has 473 yards from scrimmage over the past two weeks. Th- this is a guy who decided, "Okay, I'm gonna go and be a football player now. 31:56 The opportunity is in front of me and, and I'm going to go and become a franchise running back or, at bare minimum, a flavor of the month." 32:04 And let's be clear, he was very good in the second half of last season for the Cowboys, hence this anger, so he didn't come completely from nowhere. But he was just an afterthought in free agency. 32:13 Also gonna point out, three offensive line injuries on the Panthers' offensive line. So when you, yeah, wh- when you look at these things, you sometimes say, "Well, Bijan. Bijan's phenomenal. 32:22 Bijan did not come from nowhere," and they have a very expensive, veteran-stable Falcons offensive line, which helps out in that regard, so that's part of it, just as Eagles have the great offensive line. 32:33 The Panthers have a lot of money invested in their offensive line. It's all on the IR right now. Austin, uh, uh, Corbett and, and Martin and Hunt, they were all injured last week. 32:43 So I'm looking at this statistically, and you're right, it's yards after contact. A lot of his breakaway runs, it's not a lot of broken tackles. He's just getting into the open field and going. 32:54 It does help that the Cowboys cannot stop anyone, and the Dolphins don't like physicality. They, they would like to be playing volleyball or something like that. 33:03 It's still so remarkable, but my question is, what's, what's the expectation now? Are we gonna take the Panthers and stick them next to the Bears and say they're in the seventh seat for the wild card? 33:14 What, i- is, do we, should we put D- Dowdle in the Offensive Player of the Year category? Breakout Player of the Year, I think we just hand it to him, but, like, what, what, what does this mean? 33:26 Yeah, I was watching that game. I, I, the three TVs here in the command center- Yeah... 33:29 there's always the two, two with the game on, one with red zone, and, and I had Cowboys-Panthers on because I th- I thought that this revenge angle could, like, shine through a little bit. I wanted to see what happened. 33:39 Okay. And, and what I think is happening here is it gives Carolina a bit of an identity. N- not just that he's- Yeah... 33:44 gonna be a sledgehammer like a Derek Henry or a James Cook, but Dave Canales, head coach, did a really nice job getting him on some swing passes, on some screens- Mm-hmm... 33:52 getting him the ball in space, not just pounding him up the middle, through the middle, right at, at Frank Clark and saying, "Hey, stop him." 33:59 Th- they did a nice job of kinda scheming up opportunities for Dowdle to be productive. Um, a- after the game, I, I, I looked at Pro Football Focus. 34:08 Uh, Bryce Young, 10 of 10 passing for 125 yards and three touchdowns with a perfect 158.3 passer rating at moments in that game where they were trailing. So when they were behind- Oh... Bryce Young- Mm-hmm... 34:22 had some of his biggest and best moments of that game. So, so what did it mean? 34:26 I, I don't know what this means as far as them threatening the Buccaneers in the NF South and making a playoff run, but I think what it does is it gives them an identity, it takes pressure off of Bryce Young. 34:37 Maybe we can call Young, Bryce Young a first-round bust if this keeps up, and it probably cools down the temperature, if it was even gonna warm up a bit, on Dave Canales- Mm-hmm... 34:46 because he has a little plaything and a weapon and a toy to build the offense around. And he was always trying to build around a running game with Chuba Hubbard before. 34:56 If you look at their running game, there are a lot of concepts in it. He used a lot of pulling guards, or he was using a lot of pulling guards. 35:02 I, with the injuries, I think there's been less of that, and it, there is a lot of design to the screen game. 35:07 So it is one of those offenses where when you see, God, we're getting gashed on screens, well, they're a screen-heavy team. 35:13 They have offensive linemen who are very quick, like Equanimeous, who's not the best pass protector but will get out there and clock people in the screen game and on the outside running game. So part of that is design. 35:22 And you're right. 35:23 I, I, if it boils down to, well, this creates an eight-win team that, like, helps Bryce Young continue to, like, get out of the bust category and gets Ted McMillan involved and gets Canales to, to build things, that's a big win for the Panthers. 35:39 That's a success for the Panthers. It's not a unrealistic goal for them, it's truthful. They have a mini bye this week playing the Jets, right? 35:47 [laughs] And, and then they, they, they, then, then they come home, they have Buffalo, so we get to, to see- Yeah... whether they do anything to fix the, the running defense. 35:56 Then you go to Green Bay, and Green Bay- Right... is gonna be the challenge. Then you have the, the Saints at home, the Falcons, and the 49ers', uh, backup practice squad. 36:06 So there's an opportunity here that you could, you could pick off three or four wins just in the next month, right? Ju- and just the conversation. Oh, the mini bye is the Jets. 36:16 Jets-Panthers is supposed to be, "Hey, this is the Jets' chance to get right." And, and maybe it still is, but, like, we in our minds, it's just like, well, here's, here's the guaranteed win. 36:25 Those teams are supposed to be on the exact same tier- [laughs]... at this point, and they're not that. And then you get some of these other... I, I'll say this to the Packers. 36:32 There's gonna be a moment in that Packers game, Dowdle, off tackle, slams into Micah Parsons, they get up on each other-I'm mad at Jerry Jones. No, I'm mad at Jerry Jones. 36:41 And they push, and they push, and like that, that anger meter on the, on the video game goes, goes, goes. And whoever anger meter hits the most, it, it's either like a run for 40 yards or it gets blown backwards. 36:50 Very exciting. It's gonna be the who's more pissed off at Jerry Jones bowl, as we all expected between Micah Parsons and the really angry man, Rico Dowdle. 36:59 I, I love the joke and walkthrough, and just another sales pitch for Too Deep Zone here, that y- why is Dowdle so pissed off at the Cowboys? Yeah. Was it because Jerry Jones wouldn't pay him? 37:09 Or because Micah Parsons owed him money to be paid at the time of contract extension that never came? I, I, I fell off the- Right... patio chair reading that with the coffee on Monday morning. 37:20 It, it, it was- Seriously, like-... m- my, my stroke by you. Dude, why are you the one who's so pissed off? Like, everyone's been mad for years. You're the one who's out there, "Nah, 200-yard game, it's gonna be me." 37:29 Well, more power to you. Whatever motivates you, Rico, I will not stand in your way, certainly not now. 37:35 It, it's certainly paying off, and we talked about the, the hot seat meter, the temperature being turned down a little bit on Dave Canales because of this. 37:42 Uh, it, there, there's no more hot seat for Brian Callahan, 'cause there's no more Brian Callahan. Ain't no more seat. We're not gonna see him no more. You won't be seeing him no more. 37:49 [laughs] Leave the gun, grab the cannolis. Leave Cam Ward, grab the cannoli. That's essentially what happened there. Um, you in the outline wrote good, good riddance. 37:58 Is there any reason to go any deeper than that on, on this- No... firing? Because it just seemed like they didn't show progress last year. It was al- it was always going to be, "Hey, let's get him a quarterback." 38:08 Okay, you got him a quarterback. Cam Ward hasn't shown any progress, and no fault of Cam Ward. I think that Cam Ward's gifts shine through in that win late in the fourth quarter against the Arizona Cardinals. 38:20 He just hasn't had opportunities for those, uh, gifts to shine through, because the offense didn't set him up to. A- and there was no philosophy. There was no read. 38:28 I think there's an organizational malpractice at play here. Uh, as I spoke to one NFL executive before the firing, do you think the Titans miss Mike Vrabel now based on what's happening- Yeah... in New England? 38:39 That maybe moving on from Mike Vrabel wasn't the move that needed to be made with a, an organization that was in chaos, uh, at that point in time. 38:48 Um, but, but that's kinda where I stand on it, but it just seems like this was inevitable, and it happened. 38:54 Yeah, he, he went out there and gave this sad sack Eeyore press conference where he started throwing Cam Ward under the bus, and when you're the coach who's never done anything, you can't throw the first-round pick under the bus. 39:06 You should know this. You should also know that, like, 67-yard field goals aren't a thing. A lot of things Brian Callahan doesn't know, despite being a legacy coach in the NFL. Good rid- riddance. 39:16 There was no sense that like, well, this guy has been wronged. So, we're ready to move on from him. The question is, and it's always cool-ish to say this, who's next on the firing line for head coaches? 39:26 All right, next on the firing line, uh, it's gotta be Mike McDaniel, right? It, it, I mean, it has to be. A- a- and I'm not so sure, according to sources last year- Mm-hmm... 39:35 how he survives Black Monday, and Chris Greer survived Black Monday in Miami in January. But I'd be shocked if, if he makes it to Thanksgiving. 39:45 I mean, you have Tua Tagovailoa coming out in his post-game press conference and just throwing shade- [laughs]... at the entire operation. Players-only- Right... 39:53 meetings, uh, the players showing up late and not taking accountability for a meeting that they called together. They need to call this meeting because there's no sense of expectation from the coaching staff. 40:04 You said they want to avoid contact and they want to avoid football. These guys should, or in their minds, on the golf course or hanging out on South Beach six days a week. 40:12 They just don't seem interested in the festivities of playing in the NFL. When that's the backdrop, how is Mike McDaniel not the next coach fired? 40:21 By the way, you think Tua called a players-only meeting and no one showed up, and he was like the Fresh Prince of Bel-Air in the empty room? Like... 40:29 R- r- is there really a meeting, or did, did, did you just like, "Where is everybody?" Um, I, I'll just, uh, Mc- everything you say about McDaniel, true, but h- here we go. Ready? McDaniel or Gannon? Ooh. 40:44 He's on my list. Right. I, I, I have Mike McDaniel on my list. Um, he's definitely not surviving Black Monday. Does he make it- No, no... past Halloween? 40:53 Because it, it, it's one thing to have a comedy of errors and you cough up a game late. But then to- It's-... have your owner chop off your balls- Yes, yes... 41:03 and, and basically call out the way you handled disciplining and calling out your running back who dropped the ball going into the goal line, that locker room's not gonna respect him anymore. He- Mm-hmm... 41:14 hasn't done enough to command their respect as it is, and the Cardinals went out and they brought in, um, they, they brought in Josh Sweat. They brought in Dalvin Tomlinson. Yeah. They drafted a couple cornerbacks early. 41:24 I wrote it i- in the pre-season that they basically built this sports car. You know, some, some people build model trains in their basement. Other people- [laughs]... work on hot rods in their garage. You know- Mm-hmm... 41:35 they, they, they, like, worked on tinkering this hot rod all off-season and said, "Hey, there you go. Here you go, Jonathan. Dri- drive it. You know, take it o- and, and, and open it up a little bit." Right. 41:43 The defense has been terrible. A- and he's a defensive-minded head coach. Uh, I think one or two more losses like we saw, um, over the weekend, and that should be all she wrote on the Jonathan Gannon experiment. 41:54 You're right, but I, I would just point this out. Dolphins, going back to the Dolphins, at Browns, if they lose to the Browns with Dylan Gabriel at quarterback, that might be just the end for McDaniel. 42:06 So because like- A mercy killing... yeah, a, the mercy killing, like what are we even doing here? Because that's a one in five team, can't move the ball at all, has a good defense, et cetera, et cetera. 42:16 Um, but it's close. It's gonna be one of those two. Brian Daboll saved himself for a month, so we're waiting on that one. No, I think the temp- I think the temperature has cooled on Brian Daboll. 42:25 I, I think that when you look at the way that they beat the Eagles, that they just went out and just, you know, punched them in the face repeatedly, a- and- Mm-hmm... 42:32 and the vibes that you're getting off of Jaxson Dart and Cam Skattebo, and d- look, look, I, I think that Dart took some steps in that game. Eagles are banged up. We talked about, you know- Mm-hmm... 42:42 losing Quinyon Mitchell in the middle of that game. You talk about not having Jalen Carter. Um, but he was efficient from the pocket. 42:49 He ran when he had to, the team's responding to him, a- a- and when you're getting buy-in from the young players, sometimes that can be enough, if you start picking off some wins like that, to take a head coach off the hot seat and maybe get a buy in one more year.Let's see what happens if there's, like, another Dart injury and it gets weird. 43:06 That's the, that's the one thing Dable could do is, like, turn this into a are you endangering this young man scenario. But they're doing well. Team is doing phenomenal. Tampa Bay Buccaneers. Yeah. 43:20 You, you wrote a bunch about, like, Jason Licht and what he's done, the general manager for that organization. 43:26 Yeah, it's kind of remarkable what they've done because y- you think about the top of their draft classes at the time, we'll scratch our head about Emeka Egbuka, and it's like well why did you just take Emeka Egbuka when last year you drafted Jalen McMillan, who's on injured reserve? 43:40 Mm-hmm. Um, you talk about giving all the money to, uh, Baker Mayfield, but you look at this week's game, no Mike Evans- Mm-hmm... no Chris Godwin, no Emeka Egbuka. Uh- Mm-hmm... 43:49 Tigger obviously fired up about what the Buccaneers are doing. 43:53 Uh, but, but, but no problem, there's Taz Johnson for that, or there's a, a, a Caleb Johnson, uh, for that at wide receiver and, and they both make big plays, touchdowns, explosive catches for Baker Mayfield and, and the Buccaneers. 44:06 They, they just seem to churn out bottom of draft class players that turn into star caliber contributors. 44:13 And I spoke with an executive in that building on Sunday night and he said, quote, "You know, that's, that's our identity. It's next man up around here. That's what we're built on." 44:20 A- and they seem to be not o- not only saying it, but going out and proving it every week. Right. And Bowles deserves a lot of credit, and his revolving door offensive coordinators have a, have a lot to do with that. 44:32 L- Licht has a lot to do with it. 44:34 Um, he's one of the more, let's say, approachable general managers in the NFL, where like, like, uh, you know, I think a lot of us have met him over the years in different scenarios, and he comes across as unassuming. 44:47 And it's not like look at that phenomenal draft class, or look at what Howie did, he just traded 16 bags of beans and got A.J. Brown or anything like that. 44:57 But when Licht grab- it's the back of the, what you said, the back of the draft class- Yeah... the bottom of the draft class, 45:03 and the incumbents who are still on the roster, who he signed as a restricted free agent or gave an extension to. Uh, and it's like, oh, that guy's still there, oh, that guy's still there. 45:13 There's veterans on the bench who are hanging around, these Sean Tucker type of guys. These unsexy moves. That's what impressed me. 45:20 I wrote about that, the, that team for the, uh, Football Outsiders, uh, FTN, FTN, They Pay The Bills Almanac. Um, it's unsexy to be like, "Oh, we, we kept the core in place for another year or two years." 45:33 They keep doing it, and that's a lot of what's sustaining them right now. 45:37 'Cause through all these injuries, yeah, sometimes it's rookies, sometimes it's a guy who's been there three years who's getting the job done for them. 45:42 Yeah, you think about getting Jalen McMillan and Bucky Irving in, like, the fourth or fifth round or later. You, you talk about- Yeah, yeah... 45:48 having Rashad White on hand really late and, and you brought up Howie Roseman. I almost think that Howie Roseman e- excels at the top of the draft traditionally- Yeah... 45:56 which you're, you're gonna want to, you're gonna wanna hit on your first and second round picks every year because you're adding blue chip elite talent. 46:03 But there's something to be said where if you're collecting multiple fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh round picks on the cheap who are way outperforming their, their rookie deals- Mm-hmm... 46:13 and you continue to do that and cycle through it, that's how you kind of build a team- Yes... that can withstand Mike Evans and Chris Godwin getting hurt. And, and you talk about- Right... bringing back guys. 46:22 You know, they re-signed Lavonte David when he was 34. He had a- Right... he had a, a big interception that, that turned the tide of that game Sunday, that was a driving force in that win. He continues to make plays. 46:33 Th- they keep the, the, the band together every year. There's continuity there. Yeah. 46:37 And like I said, you've somehow turned future Hall of Famer Mike Evans and perennial All-Pro Chris Godwin into luxury pieces because Egbuka and McMillan and Tez Johnson and Johnson and, and on and on, they just continue to step up and make big plays and big spots for you and help you win these games. 46:58 And this is a team that will get some of these guys back. Several of these guys will be back. I don't think Egbuka's supposed to be out for more than a few weeks. 47:04 I think Mike Evans is gonna be back somewhere along the way. Um, along the offensive line, they started getting guys back. 47:11 You look at the end of their schedule, and let's assume the Panthers are just, like, tier C minus for real, for real, for real. They get them twice at the end of the season. Yeah. Like, what are we... 47:24 I was trying to pull up the odds. I don't have the odds handy right now. What are we looking at? Obviously, division's the division are gonna win the division. I mean, NFC Championship game. 47:33 W- we got, we got a big test this week, by the way, 'cause they face the Lions. They face the Lions, but the Lions are equally banged up, as we saw- Yes... Sunday night in Arrowhead. Um, but- Yep... 47:42 but you talk about the schedule, like, there are a lot of prove it situations for them, right? It's a prove it situation to go back in Detroit where you won last year, uh, early on in the season. 47:53 You go to New Orleans, you should be, what, touchdown favorite in that game if they continue to play at this level. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Patriots come to Tampa. By then it's November, so it's a little colder in New England. 48:03 We're gonna touch on the Patriots in a few minutes here. Mm-hmm. A- ain't gonna be chilly, ain't gonna be not humid- [laughs]... in Tampa Bay in November. Right. You go to Buffalo, you go to Los Angeles against the Rams. 48:13 That's hard. That's hard. So I, I, I mean, i- if you go four and three in this stretch, you're already banking seven wins, right? Yeah. 48:21 You already have seven wins banked away, a- and there's a chance for them to be conference wins, maybe picking off Detroit, maybe winning in the division against the Saints, maybe picking off, uh, the Rams in Los Angeles, and then you get the reprieve Thanksgiving weekend, um, against the Cardinals, another conference win. 48:37 You know, if the Eagles don't turn things around, if the Lions don't get healthy, you could be talking about home field advantage and the number one seed in, in Tampa Bay. 48:48 Yeah, it, it is vicious 'cause it's at Lions, at Bills, at Rams. Yes. Like, those are three really nasty, nasty games in there. And at Rams, at, uh, Bills are back to back. 49:00 You get past that and, and let, let me throw it at you, most wins in the NFL. Most wins in the NFL, you can get the Buccaneers at plus 450. But I'll give you another choice here.You can get the Buccaneers at plus 450. 49:14 You can get the Colts at plus 750. You know, I mean, too- The Bills are plus, the Bills are plus 600. Yeah. And, and, and the thing is, look at the, the Jets and the Dolphins are coming up. 49:28 Um, but like right at, w- give me one. Pick one. I'm g- I, I'm going Colts 'cause of schedule. I'm going Colts because- Yeah... they get to play the AFC South. 49:36 I, I, I'm getting the Colts because I think that for as electrifying as Baker Mayfield has been, and he's probably going to win MVP, and he should, he should be the leader in the clubhouse right here today. 49:46 The, the, the brand of football with Jonathan Taylor and, and Tyler Warren and Daniel Jones not turning it over, that brand of football travels in an inferior division and an inferior conference especially. 49:58 I j- I'm, I'm contemplating placing the bet as soon as we get off the air here, and it's very tricky 'cause that Bills schedule, you do have Chiefs, you have the Eagles in week 17. 50:07 We're gonna assume the Eagles have their act together, and that the Bills of course have their act together. 50:12 The Colts are very tempting if we're going for most wins, 'cause first of all, you are sitting at five and one, so you're banked. They got one Titans left. It's hard 'cause the Jaguars are pretty good. 50:26 They are, but, but they also find ways to beat themselves, and they find ways to not be so succinct for 60 minutes or, or week to week. Mm. 50:35 That was the, that was the 1:00 window game that I had on the main TV, and it just seemed like they, the drop passes, the Trevor Lawrence brain cramps- Mm-hmm... 50:43 the bad plays and, and, and busted coverages that you can't have against Jackson Smith and Jigba. 50:48 All of those things came home to roost very quickly for the Jaguars, and it kinda knocks them down a peg or so in my opinion. 50:55 I, I tend to agree, and I'm, by the way, I was watching on, uh, all the social networks as all of Trevor Lawrence's mistakes have been explained away. So don't worry, folks. Trevor Lawrence doesn't make any mistakes. 51:05 It's always, always somebody not running the route precisely the way it was supposed to. Obviously there's drops, et cetera, et cetera. 51:12 Oh, and if it's a delay of game penalty, that's probably on Liam Cohen, even though it never seemed to happen when Baker Mayfield was getting the plays from Liam Cohen. Anyway, but that's me being salty. Yeah. 51:21 Which I think leads us into our next segment. 51:24 Because- Yeah, because, listen, I, I spoke to an NFL executive on Friday about the New England Patriots, about Drake May, whether this is sustainable, and he told me flat out, quote, "When I was putting together the scouting report for Drake May, I wrote down he's the next Troy Aikman." 51:40 Unquote. Oh, for fudge sakes. Okay. You're starting to see some of that, though. You're... I'm, I'm not gonna put a gold jacket on Drake May just yet, but he's showing you the arm talent. Mm. 51:51 He's dominating within the, the scheme of Josh McDaniels' offense. Um, they're not asking him to do a lot of very difficult things, but they're showcasing the arm. He's thrown for over 200 yards in six games. 52:03 He's thrown multiple touchdowns in four of the six. He only has one interception. He's dominating, and he's being efficient out there. Your, your, your turn, sir. 52:11 When did throwing for over 200 yards become a standard of anything? When... 52:16 The answer, the answer is when Drake May threw for 203, I think, against the Panthers, and we all started putting the, the, our, our little strings of impressive stats together to be impressed about Drake May. 52:27 I'm not saying that Drake May is bad or that the last couple weeks have not been very good. But you j- I know, and I know you're quoting a source, so you just invoked Troy Aikman. But come on. 52:39 I, there's a l- there's a long way to go yet. There's [laughs] a lot of runway between- Yeah. [laughs]... a solid month and- Yeah... Troy Aikman as, as a comp, right? 52:47 But, but I, I think if we're just looking at traits and skillsets and big arms- Yeah... and, you know, you, you're gonna facilitate. 52:55 Because, look, uh, Troy Aikman, is Troy Aikman Troy Aikman without Michael Irvin and Alvin Harper- But we're not gonna-... and Emmitt Smith? We're not gonna litigate Troy Aikman. 53:03 We're not gonna litigate Troy Aikman here. I, I'm not, I'm not mentally prepared for the litigating of [laughs] Troy Aikman, because what you're doing is now justifying Drake May. 53:12 They say, "Well, Troy Aikman," no, no, no. We're talking about a kid who impressive win over the Buffalo Bills, which Michael Penix also just did, uh, yesterday. Yeah. 53:22 Um, and wins over the Dolphins, Panthers, and Saints. And the Panthers win was the punt returner. Yeah. Was the punt returner, okay? 53:35 So what the, what has happened here, now again, Drake May, very good ballplayer, developing well, is definitely in the conversation of young quarterbacks on the rise, which there should be a conversation about a group of them. 53:46 For sure, yeah. But what we're talking about is the nationwide Patriots fan base that was built off of the Brady years and everything else like that, and the media scape saying, "It's Drake May week, people. 54:03 It's Drake May month, people. Get excited about Drake May." And I have no patience for it. I, I, I can tell. I can tell that this is not sitting well with you, uh, so, so, so far. 54:19 But I, I'm just gonna tweak you a little bit here. Uh- Okay... fifth in the league in passing yards. Yeah. 1,520, 20, uh, 1,522 yards. He's averaging eight and a half, uh, yards per attempt. 54:31 When you talk about, um, qualified passers, that's fourth in the league behind- Mm-hmm... Sam Darnold, Lamar Jackson, who I don't know how he even factors in here 'cause he's been out- Right... 54:41 for the last two weeks, Jordan Love. Um- Mm-hmm... you look at passing touchdowns, 10 passing touchdowns. That is good for, uh, ninth in the league. Right. 54:50 And he has only thrown, uh, I believe two interceptions- Mm-hmm... so far this year. So there's been a bit of efficiency, uh, with, with Drake May that we certainly did not see as a rookie. 55:02 And as far as the passer rating goes, 112.2. Passer rating. All right. Yeah, I mean, again, I, I'm not saying he's playing poorlyOkay? And I br- I pu- I put him on the, I put him on the schedule for this week. 55:17 You didn't bring him up. You didn't bring him up. I put him on the schedule this week. A- Aaron had to put up with me yesterday, and he's the, you know, lifelong Patriots fan. 55:25 Not saying he's playing, uh, poorly, and I'm gonna also point out, coming up for the Patriots- Mm-hmm... Titans. Okay, so we don't have a- The nightmare continues. 55:34 I guess we get the Mike De- I guess we get a Mike Vrabel revenge game against, uh, uh, Dr. McCoy, who has taken over, um, the Titans, and- Ti- Titans win, Titans win that game. Titans win that game. Oh. 55:44 I'm gonna call the shot here. New coach theory. New coach theory. Yeah, okay. 55:48 You know, you d- h- hard to game plan for, you decide you're gonna empty the clip because you have nothing to lose, you're the interim head coach, you wanna kinda plant your flag in, "Hey, d- don't, don't put together your, your hot boards just yet, I wanna have a win that puts me in the conversation." 56:03 Um, a- and, and there is the added revenge with Mike Vrabel being on the other side. Well- I'm calling the shot here. I'm calling, I'm calling the Tennessee Titans with an upset. I love it, love it, love it. 56:15 I'm looking up the points here, but it's like Mike McCoy is a doctor, not a bricklayer, and he is going to get... You get seven points. I'm taking them. I'm taking the seven. 56:23 You guys are s- I, I'll run with seven points too. I'll take seven points, 'cause at the very least I get, like, the moral victory there, and I'll take that to the bank. Um, but like, in theory, that should be a good... 56:32 Let's say that should be a good statistical game for May against- Yeah... th- th- they don't have much on defense. Then you get the Browns, a tough opponent that winds up just giving you 1,000 possessions so you do well. 56:43 The Patriots are either gonna be 5-3 or 6-2 after that. They've got a, a easy schedule ahead. I'm not down on anyone. I'm not down on May. It's just ear splitting. 56:57 It's ear splitting because, because I, I, like, l- l- like, look at the poise, look at the this, look at the that. Look at the Saints. 57:04 Look at the Saints, they got absolutely, they, they got the- blown out by the Seahawks. L- l- look at the Panthers. A month ago, uh, Drake May, the Patriots lose to the Steelers, and there's no conversation. 57:19 And I don't think honestly there would be a conversation if Josh Allen doesn't throw an interception late in the game against the Patriots. Then May is just another guy like Penix, and Nix, 57:30 and these other young quarterbacks, and Daniels, who's coming back from the injury. But, like, I feel like I'm in this world where it's like, "Well, you, you better, you better pay attention to Drake May." 57:38 It's like, I know who he is. I know who he is. Let's wait and see. You know who I knew, knew who he was a couple m- years ago? Guy by the name of Mac Jones. You heard of him? Doing some nice things in San Francisco. 57:48 Yes, yes, he is. Came up small because there, there was no supporting cast. He was throwing to wide receivers seven and eight- [laughs]... uh, w- with, with linebacker six, uh, out there. 57:56 H- how did Aaron take this, by the way? 'Cause I know Aaron- And-... Aaron's a New England guy, Patriots guy through and through. Probably part of the... 58:05 He, he might, i- i- if he's not the engineer driving the train, he's certainly in the, um, the, the front of the train, the locomotive driving this thing about Drake May. Okay. 58:14 How did he, how did he take your, uh, your, your saltiness o- on the subject? I, I, I'll back up and say also Mac Jones is basically a walking MRI machine at this point. He's dragging himself out there. 58:25 So he does not deserve any slander with the effort he's making. Uh, Aaron A. is really used to me. Like, really used to me. 58:33 Like, he gets quiet when I go on a rant the way my wife gets qui- quiet when she- I get on a rant. Like, "Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm." 58:39 But he also al- has the stats in front of him, and what Aaron pointed out, and what he pointed out to me is, right now the Patriots defense is not p- playing particularly well, and the Patriots running game is not playing particularly well. 58:50 It's been inconsistent, of course they've got fumble issues. It has been May, and Daddy Diggs, and Pop Douglas, and the passing game. 58:59 And the, like, the DVO and everything backs it up, that that part of it is playing phenomenally, and that's all true, and it's been impressive, and also it's been the Saints, Panthers, and Dolphins. 59:08 And of course he knows opponent adjustments, so they sit there and he recognizes that. But, you know, it comes back to the actionable reality. We'll see. 59:16 I like the idea of the Titans upset, especially if I'm getting seven points on it. Um, but we'll see after that. Uh, Browns at Patriots, Falcons at Patriots, Patriots at Bucs, mini bye week against the Jets in- Yes... 59:32 Foxborough. At Bengals, who knows where, where Joe Burrow's going to be. He's home in five. Giants in Foxborough. Uh-huh. Bills in Foxborough. Yep. Ravens, Inner Harbor dock workers in Baltimore. 59:46 [laughs] Mini bye week in East Rutherford, Dolphins. 59:51 Look, you have to, if they can pick off and handle their business and, and not trip up against either Jets game, against the Dolphins again, there's a real chance they're going to win that division. 1:00:02 And if you win that division, you're talking about a playoff game. They're not gonna, they're not gonna win that division. They're not gonna win that division. They're gonna win, they're gonna make the playoffs. 1:00:10 The Bills are going to pull themselves together. We are, we are in the, in the, uh, in the eclipse, in the shadow of a Bills upset loss. The Bills are gonna win that division. The Patriots are gonna win 11 games. 1:00:20 Patriots are gonna win 12 games. You listen to... This schedule is hilarious. Aaron said there was, like, one of the top 10 easiest schedules in history, based on what, the information we have now. That's great. 1:00:31 Drake May will continue his development. He will have a lot of g- g- good games. Just everybody just stay calm. I'm calm. You can tell I'm calm, right? Stay calm, okay? 'Cause these things ha- they will ebb and flow, 1:00:49 and we should be looking at how Drake May- May is developing, not doing things which I did see, like May for MVP, which is something I actually saw. That's silly. That's silly. Yeah, yeah. 1:00:57 I mean, th- th- that's, th- that's way premature. You see, this, this is what g- this is what gets me like this, man. This is what gets me. Like, Drake May for MVP? No, no. 1:01:09 Vrabel for Coach of the Year, maybe we can have that conversation. Take a deep breath.If, if we're talking MVP, the conversation starts with Baker Mayfield. I mean, it wa- Absolutely... 1:01:19 it, it, it absolutely has to after what he did on Sunday afternoon. But we've looked back a lot, we've put some upstarts under the microscope, we've done the- Yeah... vibe checks. Uh, Circle It game, what do you got? 1:01:31 I put the Eagles and the Vikings on there. Uh, Eagles are coming off of their mini bye, Vikings are coming off their bye. Uh, everyone listening probably has a good handle on the Eagles' woes and problems. 1:01:42 Vikings should be getting J.J. McCarthy back, and the big question is, what is J.J. McCarthy? What does it mean to get him back? 1:01:48 They saw him out there have, like, a good quarter against the Bears, and just ha- ha- get, get destroyed by the Falcons defense, which we now know is a little bit better than a typical Falcons defense. 1:01:57 And then he got hurt. Who is he? If he goes out there and is impressive, it's one thing. If he goes out there and lays an egg, what does that even mean for the Vikings? 1:02:07 Definitely a lot of intrigue there, and obviously playoff implications. That's my Circle It game. What is yours? Yeah, real quick on Eagles, uh, Vikings, it, it's a prove it game for, for both of them, right? Yeah. 1:02:18 Because, you know, it, it, it's, it's... We saw what Carson Wentz did with the comeback win across the pond over Dylan Gabriel and the Browns. Is J.J. McCarthy the upgrade and the long-term answer? 1:02:29 Can we win on defense alone? Is Brian Flores' defense, which is gonna have a chance to really tee off, if we're being honest, on a running- Mm-hmm... 1:02:36 game that can't seem to get going, a wide receiving corps that's in disarray, and a quarterback in Jalen Hurts, who as efficient as he's been through his career, seems to be lacking confidence right now. But- Yeah... 1:02:46 if you go out and you dominate a- and you pass for 325 and three touchdowns, and Saquon finally has that breakout performance, all of that talk we had at the beginning of the, the show about missing an identity and finger-pointing, all that goes out the window if you do it against Minnesota. 1:03:02 Right. Right, and one thing against Minnesota, great pass rush, great creative defense. The best way to attack a creative defense, particularly Flores, is to run directly at it. 1:03:12 'Cause if you're gonna have guys going back and forth at the line and getting ready to stunt and everything like that, you can get them with a direct, straightforward running game. Eagles used to do that. 1:03:20 Eagles did that a couple years ago against a Flores defense. They should be equipped to do that, even without Dick, uh, uh, uh, Landon Dickerson right now. They should be able to do that against this team. 1:03:31 I, I, I have a bit of a bust out Circle It game. I don't think you would've even had this on your radar. Uh, is it Patriots, Titans? It is not. It is Giants and Denver Broncos. Ooh. 1:03:41 The Broncos riding a two-game winning streak, fresh off throwing a sack party in the shadow of Big Ben. Nine sacks of Justin Fields, holding him to negative 10 passing yards. Mm. 1:03:52 Kim and Jim, who just checked into the chat, you had, congratulations, 10 more net passing yards than Justin Fields did- Yeah. [laughs] We all-... on Sunday morning. We all did. You also, Mike. 1:04:01 Tigger did too- We all did... as he walked by. Let's all celebrate. [laughs] I did, yes. [laughs] We, we, we, we all had more net passing yards than Justin Fields. 1:04:07 Nick Bonito and the traveling Defensive Player of the Year tour went international, sacked Justin Fields in a key spot. He has eight on the year. I wanna see, what does Jackson Dart do against that defense? 1:04:20 It's one thing to light up an Eagles defense that's banged up in prime time, throwing to guys like Lil' Jordan Humphrey and some dude named Jalen Hyatt. It's one thing to succeed- Mm-hmm... against that defense. Yeah. 1:04:32 Can you do it with a in progress-ish offensive line and that- Mm-hmm... Broncos pass rush coming at you? And if you're the Broncos, I, I wanna see Bo Nix throw the ball around. I, I thought you'd see it- Mm... 1:04:44 against the Jets, never really materialized. I wanna see some of those weapons really step up. You know I've been high on Denver dating back to free agency. I put them in that 2024 Commanders realm. 1:04:55 I think they're starting to play like that. If you're gonna be that team, you certainly show up and are that team in a game you should win, uh, against the Giants. So show me something, Jackson Dart. Mm-hmm. 1:05:05 Show me something, Bo Nix and Broncos offense. I'm kind of looking forward to this one. 1:05:12 I have a funny feeling that you're, that Bonito and the defense are gonna carry them, and while you might see a lot from the Broncos defense, you're still not gonna see much from the Broncos offense. 1:05:21 'Cause if they feel like that they can win off turnover ball, Sean Payton's just gonna be like, "Okay, Bo, throw it in the flat. Throw it in the flat. Hand it off." 13 points won't cut it, not this time. 1:05:34 No, but, but, uh, I, I, I... The Giants secondary, besides Flott, is nothing there. No. 1:05:41 The, the Eagles should've shra- shredded it last Thursday night, and maybe this is a chance for Sutton and Mims and the other guys to actually do that with Nix triggering it. Evan Ingram revenge game, mark it down. 1:05:52 Evan Ingram- Oh my God... game mark it down. Homecoming game. I believe the game is in East Rutherford, but it's a- [laughs]... uh, Evan Ingram revenge situation. [laughs] He's been, he's been gone for, like, nine years. 1:06:04 He's like, he's still mad. [laughs] I love it though. So if Rico Dowdle can be mad, Evan Ingram can still be mad at the Giants for some reason. Let's do it. He was there with, like- Yeah, he was... Coughlin, wasn't he? 1:06:13 He was there with Coughlin, he was there with, uh, Shurmur, he was there with Joe Judge, and then he went to Jacksonville. Right. He was there with, like, Victor Cruz. Uh, well, w- what, what do I got coming up? 1:06:23 Well, I got, I got the vibe checks right now- Yes... on the Two Deep Zone. You can go see all 32 teams. 1:06:27 Really was a chance to talk about last night's game, talk about some of the coaching, um, quotes that have been coming out s- and the Tua quotes and crazy stuff like that. Uh, check all that out. 1:06:38 I am working a little bit right now for late in the week, uh, and I'm not stalling on pu- uh, on purpose here. Uh, there's something in the air tonight. The star's so bright. A new quarterback in the college draft class. 1:06:52 I'm talking about Fernando Mendoza. Mm. Mm. And I was a little glib dismissing this guy a couple weeks ago. Uh, and I'm actually getting, I'm working, doing the actual film work. 1:07:02 Talk a little bit more about the quarterbacks in the draft class, something I don't usually do in October. I'm gonna be doing that late in the weekVery timely. 1:07:09 In my conversation with an executive Friday, he mentioned that he's the best quarterback in this draft class, um, really leaps and bounds above guys like Cade Kludnick, Drew Aller, Arch Manning. 1:07:21 Aller, who knows what's gonna happen there after the, uh, season-ending lower body injury on Saturday afternoon. Um, but Figueroa is just lighting it up, and his draft stock from people inside the league is soaring. 1:07:31 So you have this coming out at exactly the right time. I know, it's exciting 'cause, you know, he really, he really crushed it against both Kennesaw State and Indiana State. I- I'm gonna tr- [laughs] I'm gonna try- No. 1:07:41 No, he had, he had a shaky- He went, he went in, he went into Oregon and won the game. Yes, he has- Let's be clear about this... won. He went, he went into- I-... Oregon and won the game. 1:07:48 Uh, [laughs] so, so, so let's not, let's not dismiss what he's doing right now. I, I, I, I know. I'm, I'm, I'm gonna be putting aside my obvious saltiness and skepti- skepticism and doing the work on, on this young man. 1:08:01 Fernand- Fernando Man- Mendoza, remember the name. Awesome. Uh, coming up this week, next couple days, I'm gonna be- Yeah... listing out, I, I, I have this, like, turnover idea that's rattling in my brain- Okay... 1:08:12 that turnovers matter so much to contending teams. We're gonna profile the, the turnover kings in the NFL. 1:08:19 Top five in turnovers defensive players, what they're doing, the impact they're having on their team, how, uh- Ooh... sources inside the league view them individually as players. Mm-hmm. 1:08:28 Looking forward to getting that out there, and then on Friday, it's the weekly mail bag. Fire off your questions. I'll give you my take. 1:08:35 I'll pose those questions to NFL executives, coaches, scouts, agents, former players, and get their thoughts on the biggest story lines that you wanna know about, uh, at Between the Hash Marks on Friday. 1:08:46 Sounds fantastic. And folks, if you're watching, send Matt your questions. He does a m- a weekly mail bag. I do, like, a monthly mail bag. Send them out. 1:08:53 Matt will run them past experts, insiders, give you their thoughts, give you his thoughts. He's Mike Tanier. Make sure you subscribe to The Two Deep Zone on Substack. Follow him on Bluesky, @miketanier. 1:09:04 I'm Matt Lombardo. You can follow me on Threads, @mattlombardonfl. Bluesky, it's just mattlombardo. 1:09:10 Uh, subscribe to Between the Hash Marks on Substack, and if you're a fan of the show, if you enjoyed the live conversation, we love doing these live podcasts every week. 1:09:18 If you're on Apple Podcasts, please go ahead and subscribe. Leave us a five-star review. They are instrumental in growing the show. We really do appreciate them, and, uh, we'll read them next week. 1:09:28 If you wanna rip us and make fun of us, we'll read them. It'll be your moment to shine, and ours not to. Mike, this has been a ton of fun, as it always is. 1:09:35 Thanks, everybody, for checking in, and we'll talk to you next week. See everybody soon.
