Transcript 0:00 Welcome on in to another action-packed and live edition of the Between the Hash Marks podcast. 0:05 As always, I'm Matt Lombardo, joined by my friend, colleague, mentor, and the purveyor of the must-read Too Deep Zone on Substack, Mike Tanier. Mike, how you doing, my friend? I'm doing great. 0:16 Excited to be back, back to a normal week, and I brought something special with me to the pod this week. Ooh, i- is it a, is it a Saquon hoagie? Did, did you go to Wawa- It is not a Saquon hoagie... and get a Saquon? 0:26 I would not eat that if I was starving to death. How would I wind up at Wawa but have to eat the most horrible mustard hoagie in the world? No, but this has been talked about on the internet. 0:37 I, I'm sorry I couldn't share, but I, I couldn't resist when this came to the store. The loaded Oreo. Whoa. This, this- Look at that thing... this is the Oreo filled with other Oreos. That's unbelievable. 0:50 Yeah, so other Oreos died so that these Oreos may live. They crushed other Oreos to put them inside of the Oreos. It's like a fractal snack, okay? It's turtles all the way down. 1:02 So- Can you imagine being the guy at the end of the assembly line and you're staring down at all of the, like, crumbs and pieces and bits, and you're like, "Ooh, what can I do with these? 1:11 Let me stuff them back in the machine and see what happens." You take a bite out of it as a snack, and next thing you know, it's on the shelves and it's a best seller. 1:18 [laughs] First of all, if I were the guy at the end of the a- a- assembly line, I would be snorting that dust by the end of the day. I would be a dust... I'd be Lawrence Taylor snorting that, that dust up. 1:29 Um, this, it's g- it's kind of like the, you put coffee through the coffee machine at some point in your life, right? You see the coffee and you're like, "What if I run that through more coffee?" 1:37 And you realize that doesn't actually work. No. Um, but this, so, so if you look at it, I'm gonna break her open 'cause that's my preferred method. You can see there's like a dusty gray in there. Yeah, yeah. Right. 1:49 You got li- you got little bits of Oreo cookies smashed up and crumbled up and, and pounded into dust in there. Pounded into dust, crumbled up, uh, ready for snort. So I'm gonna give a little, uh... Yep. 2:07 It just tastes like an Oreo. [laughs] So- So, so, so not a significant upgrade with the chocolate cookie crunched up into the filling? 2:17 No, I gue- I guess I don't know what I expected, since all they said was, "This is an Oreo with more Oreo in it." But I felt like there would be more pizzazz. I'm gonna try something here. I got two. 2:28 I'm gonna do a little doctoring here. Ooh, we're doubling up. We're doubling up- Loa-... on the double Oreo... loaded Oreo club sandwich, okay? This is, like, weaponized Oreo here, so... 2:39 And there's only one way to do this. No, I, I was gonna try to eat the entire thing at once. I was gonna s- Not on camera. Not, not on video. Not, not on camera. Not on camera. Not with- Save it for Snitch... 2:49 not with these, not with the surprisingly few viewers right now who seems, saw me eating an Oreo and tuned out immediately. So let me see what we got here. 3:05 So, uh, Nabisco, right? Nabisco, make the loaded Oreo club sandwich. [laughs] 'Cause that is the ecstatic, ecstatic experience there, so I, I do not recommend it- Would you, would you eat it on game day? 3:18 Would, would you recommend it on game day while we're watching all the games, watching all the action unfold? Would you recommend having the bowl of the, the loaded doubled up Oreos? 3:27 My cardiologist will not allow me to recommend that. And also, I know this does not go good with beer. This does not go good with beer. I got my milk with ice in it here, uh, to take, quash that down with. 3:39 But I think if you're an Oreo fan, you might as well just eat Oreos. You know, it's a shame you didn't have these on the bus. 3:45 It's a shame that you did not have them with you on the bus ride back, uh, from New Orleans, uh, through Biloxi, Mississippi, through the deepest parts of the South, back to civilization. 3:55 It would've been sustenance for you and the wife for, for at least eight of the hours. Right. It w- it would, it would've kept our spirits high. We would've shared. 4:03 There's no way we could've been on that bus and not passed out the Oreos to everyone there and tried to have a little Oreo bonding experience. Great way to make friends is to offer them Oreos. 4:11 I think that's one of their commercials, actually. But yeah, it would've been nice to have anything, but, but, like, I'm, I'm in a happier place now, Matt. I'm not on the bus anymore. 4:19 We're at NFL week, coming off another Eagles victory, have a lot to talk about today. Um, by the way- A lot, a lot, a lot of teams probably aren't feeling that great, but yes, go ahead... 4:32 but by the way, we should, you gotta do the introduction with the, leave the five-star review and all that stuff. Yes, yes, yes. 4:37 So b- just a little housekeeping before we do dive into some of the calamitous quarterback situations that are beginning to unfold. 4:43 Um, please go ahead and subscribe to The Too Deep Zone on Substack, i- if only for walkthrough on Monday. It's mandatory reading. It's my Monday routine every single Monday. 4:53 The features that Mike puts out there with his fire brand of storytelling, as only Mike can, give you a, a glimpse of what's going on inside the NFL with in-depth storytelling and stats, all the analytics you need. 5:05 Subscribe to the Too Deep, to, to Between the Hashmarks on Substack as well. If you enjoy my insider reporting, the context from scouts and coaches and executives around the NFL, that's over on Substack. 5:15 And if you could, this is a clarion call, Mike, to everyone out there watching this on YouTube, @mattlombardo975, or joining us on the live. 5:24 If you could l- just subscribe in the Apple Podcast store, leave us a five-star review and rating. Our rating is currently a 4.7 out of 5. I do think that we can bump that up. 5:35 I do think that we can get up to a, a five stars on the five-star reviews. A- and just know that whatever you leave on that five-star review, we will read it live on this show the next week. Absolutely. 5:48 And by the way, as soon as you said clarion call, your audio got a little strange. You're very echoey right now. 5:53 I, I wonder if it isn't the, the AirPods going out on me, that you promote Apple, you promote the AirPods, a- and then they, they die on you, you know? 6:02 Uh, th- to me, so that, that's not great, but it's, it's synergy, if you ever saw itAnd, and now you're frozen. I think there's a, a whole situation going on there. Oh wait, there you go. 6:13 Uh, just give me a check- There we go... one, two, please. One, two, one, two. Are you- Here we are. Okay. Okay, we're, we're back. Yeah, yeah, that's Apple for you. What can you do? 6:20 I, I'm sorry, Apple, please don't, don't... We'll take a, we'll take a sponsorship, we'll take free gear, just don't cancel us forever. We'll take a, we'll take a, we'll take, uh, upgraded AirPods so, so they work. 6:30 How about that? That's perfect. That's perfect. Yeah, so, so anyway, subscribe in the Apple Podcast Store, check us out on YouTube at MattLombardo975. Subscribe to The Too Deep Zone on Substack. 6:41 Subscribe to Between the Hash Marks on Substack as well. Uh, what did you wanna fire off at me before we got to the housekeeping? Oh, it was this. It was, I wa- I wanted to eat my cookie. 6:50 I wanted to get you talking so I could eat my cookie- [laughs]... and drink a little more milk. Professionalism over here, that's all I wanted. 6:57 And we get, we get started into this, and we're gonna talk about quarterback calamities around the NFL. 7:01 But had a Monday night game, the, the Cowboys obliterated the Raiders, and the Raiders are the Raiders, but the Cowboys looked pretty solid after kind of a rough first quarter. What do you... 7:13 Is there anything we can take away from this? Uh, I think I take away a lot more from the Raiders than I do about the Cowboys after that game. 7:20 I, I feel like I learned, not that it wasn't already wholly obvious, that that's a disaster in Las Vegas right now. Oh, yeah. Uh, I, I think that they pinned a bit too much on the shoulders of Geno Smith. 7:32 I never quite understood Geno Smit- Smith being anything more than a middling, average to slightly above average NFL starting quarterback. He's playing like a below average starting quarterback right now. 7:44 Chip Kelly can't seem to figure out how to get Ashton Jeanty going. The, he's a space player. He was a space player at Boise State, yet they- Mm-hmm... insist on pounding him up the middle, uh, between the tackles. 7:55 It, it, it's not working. It, it's just not working. And on the touchdown pass to George Pickens in the first quarter, it looked like three different defensive backs just quit. Like, they just- [laughs]... 8:07 quit on the play, quit on the season- [laughs]... quit on their careers. That, that- Right... George Pickens touchdown kind of froze them in time, in space, and that was the end of it. 8:15 Um, I, I don't know how much I took away about Dallas being anything other than what we thought they were, Mike, but it seems like this Raiders situation, um, i- is to the point where we might need to start talking about Pete Carroll as a one and done. 8:28 Uh, our friend Matt Verderame had me on, like, last week, and he said, "You know, Pete Carroll looks at the field right now like he's looking at Nam." 8:36 Like, like, like he's looking at the desolation after, after a war or something like that. He, he can't like what he's doing. 8:42 And, and, and we hear the rumors and then, uh, uh, of the infighting going on within the organization, and power struggles. 8:48 And the defense saying out loud before that game that they were, like, so frustrated with the offense that I guess the only surprise was, oh, we're quitting in the first quarter instead of waiting till the third, uh, which is kinda how that went out. 9:01 I got... The, the Cowboys right now, playoff odds. I got their playoff odds via DVOA from FTN Network. The Cowboys have a 6.9% chance of making the playoffs still, and I... That sounds a little low. 9:14 I could see them at 10, 11, 12, 13%, whatever that means, 'cause offense is very good, Pickens and Lamb, very, very good, and Quinnen Williams has a big game last night. He, he doesn't fix... 9:25 Him and Wilson, Wilson had a couple of good plays. They don't fix the defense, but I think they took it from 31st, like, ahead of only the Bengals, to, like, 22nd. So- Yeah. That's about what we thought going in, right? 9:37 We, we- Right... did the post trade deadline episode before you went on your trip, and I think- Mm... we said, "This isn't gonna be a top 10 defense, but it could be a top 24-ish defense-" [laughs] "... 9:48 somewhere in that range," right? Right. And when you have the offense firing on all cylinders, as they were last night, it could work. It, it did kind of look like the change of scenery argument is working for- Yeah... 9:58 Logan Wilson, that perhaps being on a defense of quit-zillas and, um- [laughs]... and has-beens, never wases, with the exception of Trey Hendrickson- Yeah... 10:08 w- was just a bad scene, uh, a- a- a- and, and miscast in our Golden system as well. It seems like Logan Wilson might have found his sea legs already a little bit in- Mm-hmm... in Dallas. 10:17 But if we're talking about the Cowboys and the playoff odds, I think part of that comes down to the schedule, because it- Yeah... it's, it's not great. If you're talking about improving from four, five, and one. 10:28 You have the Eagles at home, um, this coming Sunday, game of the season for them. Mm. You have the Chiefs, you go to Detroit- Mm... you have Minnesota, you have- Mm... 10:38 the Chargers, and then you finish up at Washington at the Giants. Mm-hmm. And I feel like the ceiling and the floor are kind of like you built the ceiling right on top of the floor for this. I think it's four wins. 10:48 [laughs] I think they can get four wins out of that schedule. Yeah. But they're gonna need to steal at least one or two from the Eagles, Chiefs, or Lions, right? Right. 10:58 A- a- and they look like a team that can steal a win. So I would be f- I would be worried about them if I'm an Eagles fan coming into this week. 11:05 And after the Lions lost to the Eagles, I, as a Lions fan, I would look at that offense and be like, "This could be a problem, uh, uh, uh, along the way." 11:13 But you're right, like, the ceiling and the floor, they're gonna steal one of those games, and then they're gonna get one stolen from them because they're the Cowboys. 11:18 They're gonna get one stolen by the Commanders at the end. The Chargers will have, like, their offensive line figured out, some sort of stability there, and they'll get a win. 8-8 and 1 in the NFC does not 11:30 make the playoffs, does not get a wild card. 8-8 and 1 is way off of it. They have to get up to about 10, 6 and 1, because some team like, you know, obviously the Packers or the Bears- Yeah... 11:41 certainly the 49ers, they're gonna take those spots away from the Cowboys. So the Cowboys made themselves a, a, a better spoiler probably, but- I think, I think I know when their season gets spoiled. When? 11:52 I think I know. It's week, it, it's week 18. It, it's against the Giants at the Meadowlands. Oh my God. You know, the, the, the, the Cowboys will have a window. They'll have an ability to get in. Mm-hmm. 12:03 Uh, but the Giants and Jaxson Dart are going to decide that they're going to play for Mike Kafka, and, and they're gonna send him off with a win, send, uh, John Mara and Joe Schoen into the off-season with a victory and, quote-unquote, progress around Mike Kafka. 12:17 Oh, no. They're gonna win one for the Gipper, and they're gonna knock the Cowboys out of post-season contention. 12:21 That's when Dallas slips up, in my opinion.That would be hilarious and fun, and it's like a do or die game, so they put it on, like, the late window in week 18. It's still a long shot for anything like that to happen. 12:32 Like, teams like the Packers and those Niners have to have a little bit of a mini collapse, et cetera. But it would be fun. [laughs] That would be- It would be, it would be a lot of fun. 12:40 A- and, and you know, you look ahead to Sunday, Eagles and Cowboys. I- if I'm the Eagles, I'm not, I'm not feeling great about that match-up right now. No. 12:48 Because here's the thing, the defense is playing at a championship level. 12:52 I, I thought that that was as dominant a performance by an Eagles defense that we've seen, uh, maybe in the last two years, what they did just completely taking away what the Lions do best. 13:02 Eh, Dan Campbell couldn't help himself going oh-for-five on fourth- Right... down tries. That didn't help things. 13:07 Uh, but I talked to a scouting director after the game, and he said, quote, "The Eagles have depth and situational players. That's a great combination. 13:14 The talent level is high, but so are the pieces they've put together to complement each other." Jalen Phillips was a big piece that you got at the trade deadline. Yeah. He's already making a really big impact. 13:24 You look at Jordan Davis and Jalen, uh, Carter up front. You look at Quinyon Mitchell, what he's doing. You look at Cooper DeJean, what he's doing. 13:31 All of this talent is starting to rise to the top, but I just wonder, as much as that defense is aggressive, as much as it's dominant, as much as there's schematic flexibility for Vic Fangio based on the pieces, is it gonna be enough to overcome a competent offense when you're not playing in 30 mile an hour wind gusts, when you're not playing a dome team outside? 13:54 Because that offense looks like it's just completely out of sync and completely out of an identity right now. Right. It's a very hard watch, and you know, the analytics, the DVOA say it's actually not that bad. 14:04 The DVA will point things like not a lot of turnovers, like very few turnovers. They'll remi- the DVOA will remind you, that was the Lions defense. Before that, that was the Packers defense. 14:14 Earlier in the year, that was the Broncos defense that they lost to. That, you know, a lot of, like, top line defenses along the way. I still need to see more. Or by, and by more, I need to see something. 14:25 And, and, and that's the thing. The Cowboys aren't gonna get held to nine points. They're not gonna get held to seven points. Even with the defense playing well, you're gonna hold them to 20. 14:35 You know, you're gonna hold them to 17, something like that, 20, 21. You gotta find 24 to 26 points on offense. 14:42 You should be able to find that, especially against a, a, a defense that was weak, uh, uh, entering, heading into the bye. Let's see if the Eagles can put that together. 14:49 For, for, for our sake, as people who watch the games and as people who are always talking to Eagles fans, 14:56 I hope so, because not only do you and I have to watch it, but then we have to contextualize it to our neighbors who want to, like, 15:03 burn, you know, uh, uh, effigies of jerseys and things like that, and it can get very, very [laughs] tiring during the course of the week. No, it definitely can. 15:12 And, and it just seems like when you watch the offense and you watch Kevin Patolo- Uh-huh... somebody on social media Sunday night put it best to me. 15:18 W- what I put out there, I thought that the drive, I think it was at the end of the half, where- Mm-hmm... you had Tank Bisby co- Bigsby come on- Yes... as a change of pace. 15:26 It was like a 17-yard run, couple Saquon Barkley runs, then you go over the top with the shot. The- Yeah... that felt like the identity of- Right... 15:34 what that offense is built to be, what it should be, how you should script drive to drive, game to game. 15:40 A- and somebody fired back at me, "That sounds great in theory, but we all know when something works with Kevin Patolo, he reverts to the quote unquote- [laughs]... factory settings. 15:48 He resets to the factory settings- [laughs]... and, and, a- and you get these shots downfield all over the place to receivers that are out of sync, and it just- Yeah... it's not working. That's that. 15:56 That, that's exactly it. Hey, that worked. Let's abandon it. It's w- it's a l- it's like Joe Brady has the same syn- uh, syndrome. 16:04 It's like, man, it's great when we just let Josh Allen create or when we go with six offensive linemen, two tight ends, and then just smother people. Let's do neither of those things. 16:13 Let's try to do like the West Coast offense. That's what's going on with Patolo. It's like, oh yeah, we, we come up with a wrinkle that works. I'm just gonna whisper this. I know I'm whispering this to a Penn State guy. 16:23 I know I'm whispering this to an old Giants guy. Does Tank Bigsby seem to have a little more juice than Saquon right now? He's a jump snake. A little more explosiveness. A little more explosiveness. 16:35 [laughs] I don't know how much of that is change of pace, fresh legs. Yeah, yeah. I don't know how much of that is different looks with the offensive line- Right... blocking for him or whatever it is. Mm-hmm. 16:46 But yeah- Yeah... 16:47 it, it, it almost feels like if you wanna l- look, you know, two steps down the line, that when Howie Roseman traded for him from the Jaguars, it might have been after watching those first couple games of Saquon Barkley and thinking, "Hey, we need to buy an insurance policy here." 17:00 Right. Right. And in the meantime, and, and all you said is true. Like, we might just be looking at certain kinds of plays. This guy's coming in as a change-up. The opponent's expecting something different, whatever. 17:10 Wouldn't mind seeing a little more Tank. You can try to put some things together where they're both on the field. There's ways of doing that. Um, but I, I wanna see more of everything. 17:18 I, I think we talked about this before. It's like, why hasn't this person gotten involved? Why hasn't that person gotten involved? Because when the offense is always going three and out, nobody can get involved. 17:27 They don't have the ball. You know, they, they run, it's late in the second quarter, they've run 12 plays. No one's [laughs] involved. Wanna see some kind of consistency from the Eagles offense. Watch, repeat. 17:37 We say it every week. Perhaps we'll see it against the Cowboys next week. For sure, and you look at the defense, I think the defense is good enough to carry them- Yeah... 17:45 pretty far, because I don't know how many complete teams there are on the NFC side of the bracket. The Rams, I thought looked really, really good. Um, the Bears are, are coming on strong. 17:55 But it's not a loaded, it's not a loaded conference when you start looking down the line, but you have to get to that point anyway. 18:02 Uh, we're gonna talk, too, about a lot of different quarterback situations that are starting to come off the rails. 18:07 But before we do, I wanted to pick your brain a little bit here, because you're starting to hear these whispers. 18:12 Uh, Derek Gunn, friend and colleague, came out on his post-game show with Seth Joyner after the game and basically said that there's starting to be some concerns about Jalen Hurts in that building, how they're operating, what the offense is doing.Are, are you buying those concerns? 18:31 Are, are you worried about those concerns? 18:33 Could that be what is, uh, basically keeping this offense in neutral, or is this just a case of an offense that has no identity right now, and so the finger obviously gets pointed at the quarterback because that's the focal point, he touches the ball every play, and all those things? 18:49 Yeah, I think we're seeing, like, the upper limits of what Jalen Hurts can do as sort of a efficiency passer. He's not that. He's never been that. 18:57 He's somebody who takes deep shots and runs the ball and can get you goal line touchdowns. 19:02 And the more we try to create, whe- whether it's the offensive coordinator or whoever, is trying to create a, a, a efficiency passer out of Jalen Hurts, the, the weaker I think everything's going to look. 19:13 So if that starts to manifest itself, the questions about Hurts, if the interpersonal relationship with Brown is, Hurts has something to do with that, which is very possible, all these things are true. 19:25 I sometimes li- say it, it's true but not interesting, 'cause you're not getting rid of Hurts this year. You're not getting rid of Hurts next year. 19:32 Hur- calling Hurts the problem when he's got a Super Bowl ring and you're 8-2 and things like that, it, it, it's, it's one of those situations where it's like we know this can get fixed. 19:43 We know you can create a version of Jalen Hurts that's hitting deep shots and running the ball and getting the ball to, to Smitty on those out routes and doing the things he does well. 19:51 Get back to that, and that's kind of the goal. The, the idea that it's like, well, this is a leadership problem that starts at the top. What, what do you do with that information, except, you know, complain? 20:02 [laughs] Right. Right, and, and you think about their situation, you talk about the Cowboys' chances of making the postseason, it almost seems like the Cowboys' only real path is a wild card, right? Yeah. 20:12 I, I, I don't think that they're going to overtake the Eagles in that division. So, so you have effectively the second half of the season to figure it out. Yeah. 20:20 To figure out what works for Hurts, kind of restructure the offense around his strengths. 20:24 And if I'm Kevin Patullo, if, if I'm Nick Sirianni, before you even step on the practice field on Wednesday at the NovaCare Complex, I, I, I'm going old school here. I, I'm bringing, 20:35 uh, Jalen Hurts upstairs into the coach's office. Mm-hmm. I'm pulling out the tablet, and I'm saying, "Give me your 20 plays. Give me the 20 plays that you're most comfortable with, that you think- Mm-hmm... 20:45 work the best, that you think should be the foundation to this offense. We're gonna build it around that." 20:50 You, you've heard all these times when there's a new coach coming in or a quarterback who's struggling or, you know, you're putting the backup in, what are you comfortable with? What are the plays that work best for you? 21:00 If those conversations haven't happened, I think that now is the time, given the fact that they got away with one against the Lions- Mm-hmm... 21:08 with the offensive showing they had, to kinda get back to basics and rebuild the offense around what works for Hurts, not just to change the narrative, but for them to get right with an offense that matches what the defense is doing for a stretch run and potentially a run at another Super Bowl. 21:21 I just w- wanna see two tight ends to the right, Smitty in the slot left, A.J. Brown wide left, 21:30 Saquon in the backfield, the shotgun, possibly a hand off, possibly a zone read, possibly a short pass or a, a deep cross to, to Smitty, possibly the bomb to, uh, A.J. 21:42 Brown, possibly Ga- Goddard in the flat or going across the middle. I wanna see the Steichen offense again. I wanna see the Shane Steichen offense. Please bring back the Shane Steichen offense, please. 21:50 The, show me it doesn't work. Show me the example of just doing that, and it's like we can run, like, s- eight basic plays from this, and it's all one-on-one match-ups that we're gonna crush you in. 22:00 Show me that doesn't work, and when that doesn't work, then I'll start listening to whatever this is that they're doing right now that I don't understand the logic of. It's working out pretty well for Daniel Jones. 22:11 It's working out pretty well for Tyler Warren. It's working out pretty well for Michael Pittman. Jonathan Taylor, i, i- is doing pretty well- Yeah... in the Shane Steichen system. 22:18 It seems to be working, uh, pretty well in Indianapolis. Uh, working a lot better for Daniel Jones than it is certainly for Jalen Hurts and some other quarterbacks around the league right now. 22:29 The, I, I called in the column that this was prove-it-Sunday across the NFL- Yes... because really it looked like the playoff picture is starting to snap into focus. It's November now. 22:39 Teams are starting to make their moves. Past Super Bowl champions, y- you look at the months of November, December, and January, it's been the defining stretch for those teams. Mm-hmm. 22:49 You think back over the last five years, teams are 34 and 13 combined, the teams that have won the Super Bowl, in November, December, and January. But it was also, like, QB crisis central. Like, if we were- [laughs]... 23:01 filming a new CBS melodrama that would air after 60 Minutes on Sunday, uh, it would be QB crisis cen- central. [laughs] C- CSI: J.J. McCarthy, 23:14 where the investigators are, are doing forensics to figure out, like, like, what's wrong with J.J. McCarthy. They're doing DNA samples. They're picking up cigarette butts- [laughs]... 23:22 and, like, did somebody shoot him in the, in the, in the hand? What's going on here? [laughs] Justin Jefferson whacked him in the arm with his helmet. [laughs] So so- so- so- something went terribly wrong in Minnesota. 23:36 [laughs] Right. Right. You throw Mi- Michael Penix in there. Like, like, uh, you, there's, like, a chalk outline, and it's Michael Penix. But- Let, let, let's start there. Let, let's start with Michael Penix- Yeah... 23:44 because he was the great hope for the Falcons, and you saw some things down the stretch last year that you thought, "Okay, we can build around Michael Penix." He, up and down this year, right? 23:55 Kinda like the rest of that team, and now you look at the injury. What, what are you even do if you're Atlanta? Where, where do you go from here? That's fair. 24:03 And, you know, he wa- he was up and down, but the up was that Bijan Robinson was up, and so he's completing, you know, play action passes and getting a few things done. 24:13 The downs were unsightly downs every time along the way. Now he's got this season-ending injury, and they don't have a first-round pick next year. 24:22 The Falcons' first-round pick is the property of the Rams due to the trades to get the edge rushers Carter and Pierce. So-Now I look at this, and y- y- it's like the push and pull. 24:33 Do you just go back to the quarterback factory right now? Because not only did Penix look bad, but he sounded bad. Yeah. 24:40 When you hear him talk, and when you ask questions like, "Well, what happened at the end of the, uh, Patriots game?" He's like, "Well, somebody made a loud noise, and I got confused, and the snap came." 24:49 It's like, that's not an NFL quarterback, folks. That is not an NFL quarterback. Do you wait for this, knowing that you might have another year? Like, next year you might be having the J.J. 24:59 McCarthy year this year for the, uh, Vikings that we get into, or, or, or do you try something? Do you try Mac Jones? Do you try... I know you probably have a list of quarterbacks. [laughs] What do you do here? No? 25:12 It, it's, it's, it's not great. I mean, you look at the landscape, it, it, it is suboptimal for what the, the Falcons can do from here. Because even if you wanna say, "Stick with Kirk Cousins," and you can get by- Oof... 25:22 with Kirk Cousins, and that's what you signed him for, the, the reaction is one thing, just based on the play. Mm. 25:28 But next year's the first year that there's a- anything even resembling an out in that albatross of a contract. Uh-huh. 25:35 You can release him post-June 1, and it's a $22.5 million dead cap hit, which is not great, but you free up $35 million in cap space. Yeah. So, so it, it might be the move in 2026 to just get that off the books- Yes... 25:49 turn the page- Oh, absolutely... write it off as a loss. Kirk Cousins is not the answer, even for 2026. You brought up Mac Jones. Justin Fields is gonna be available. 26:00 Do you, do you bring him home and say, "Hand it off to Bijan?" Like [laughs] what do you, what do you even do here, because... 26:08 [laughs] I don't know we still have to g- we still have to talk about Justin Fields at this point. Yeah, it might be the last r- remaining scenario. 26:16 He can be the, the quote-unquote "bridge" back to Michael Penix when he's healthy, and to whatever 2027 is, because you don't have a first-round pick in 2026. The 2026 quarterback class is looking to be abysmal. 26:29 So you're almost punting, right? You're almost punting on anything other than Bijan Robinson next year, right? Kyler Murray trade? Yeah. Th- th- yeah, then we're out in, like, goofy land. 26:42 Of course we start to get out and go, "A Tua trade." Like, uh, but Cousins, he- Trevor Lawrence. Trevor Lawrence trade. You know, Trevor- Yeah, sure... and Drake London, right? Kyle Pitts. 26:52 The, the, the thing is, okay, Cousins has gotten, like, three relief appearances, and he's sort of, like, the 45-year-old relief pitcher with a, with an 8.4 ERA at this point. 27:01 Like, there's nothing when you see Kirk Co- Cousins, and we'll see him, uh, in detail next week. There is nothing NFL left about him. He is two years washed at this point. So that's out of the picture. So I, I... 27:12 And, and when we look, c- we were talking about this on other podcasts. It's like, oh, well, well, you see guys like Sam Darnold, and it shows you that teams give up too quickly on their rookie quarterbacks. 27:23 And on the second and third stop, those quarterbacks do better. And here's a team that does have Bijan, Drake London, a really good offensive line, all these things in place. 27:32 So that says, well, you go out there for year three of Michael Penix, 27:37 and you hope that, like, he's, can stay healthy, that he can be consistent, which he hasn't been, and that he's got that sort of gamer mentality that he's demonstrating he doesn't necessarily have. 27:47 It's a horrible combination, and if you're gonna complain about Jalen Hurts in this world, just, this, j- just remember what's behind door number two, folks. 27:55 Please, just remember what's behind [laughs] door number two with, "Oh, we'll go into the draft, and we'll get this kid." 28:00 It's likely to be somebody who's, like, eight starts into his career, and you're at the crossroads wondering if you've completely wasted all the resources you put in on him. 28:08 And, and five starts into his career, you look at Minnesota, and it is not going well- Oh, gosh... for J.J. McCarthy. And I, I took a lot- Well-... of heat for this take on social media on Sunday, but watching J.J. 28:18 McCarthy in that game, it really feels like this is the, the, the biggest criticism of the Kevin O'Connell school of quarterbacking. That this is- Yep... 28:29 the, the biggest indictment of that narrative of McConnell being this elite quarterback whisperer, because it, it's just not good. It's just- No... not good with J.J. 28:39 McCarthy, and the two interceptions against the Bears w- were ugly. They, they were bad throws. They were under thrown. 28:45 They were off target, and there was a third ball that should have been intercepted and would have been intercepted, had two Bears defensive backs- Yes... 28:52 not colliding, knocked themselves out of the game trying to intercept it. And this is a week after you watched the Ravens just goad him into terrible throws- Mm-hmm... 29:01 goad him into interceptions over the middle because they disguised their coverages. And all of a sudden, Kyler Hamilton is, is, is looming. Kyle Hamilton's there to pick it off and pull down the interception. 29:10 The pressure to sack or, sack rate, 30th in the NFL at 22.4%. Mm. He's 25th in turnover-worthy throws, 25th in the league with 11 turnover-worthy throws, but he has Justin Jefferson. 29:23 He's had Jordan Addison for the past seven weeks, and he's only 21st in the league in big-time throws with 10 of them. Th- th- this just is not... He does not look like a first-round pick. 29:36 I know it's technically his rookie year because he was injured last year. I know he's only had five starts, 29:42 but this just does not look like an NFL quarterback when you're watching him, and the metrics are backing that up right now. Let me t- give you one right now. 29:48 I wa- I was rewatching, uh, his film, and early in the game, he has a wide open Addison on the left side of the field, under throws him. 29:56 Couple plays later, wide open Jeff- J- Justin Jefferson on the left side of the field, under throws him. 30:01 I pulled up the numbers on his throws to the left, 12 of 28 for 171 yards, one touchdown, two interceptions, only 11 on target throws of 28. 30:12 I haven't really interrogated the data, 'cause I have a feeling there is at least one, if not two, screens to the left. 30:19 Tyron Jones, that, that, that 171 yards, I guarantee it, there are 30 or 40 yards of yak on a screen in there somewhere. I, I g- the play's in my mind, but I can't place it. 30:28 Just mechanically bad, and so I start trying to make excuses and say, "Well, he has a hand injury right now."And then it's like, well, he's five starts into his career and there's always an injury. 30:40 This is the hand injury, and then there was the injury earlier in the year, and of course he had the injury last year. 30:44 So on top of everything else, you have the question, okay, i- is this kid able to even protect himself? So, so the Chargers, but they- the Chargers are in the same boat as the Falcons. What do you do? 30:55 There's a huge investiture in this young man. Yes. Okay. Yeah. It's, uh, Kwesi and the GM and, uh, O'Connell's careers are kind of staked to this young man. Uh, the one thing we can say about this is he's still healthy. 31:08 You have the rest of the year, you have nothing better to do. Right. But to thr- throw him out there every week, see if Justin Jefferson beats him over the head with a hammer, 31:16 or if he, like, come- Seems like that could be coming. Seems like that could be coming. Yeah, th- th- th- that, that's, that's looming in the distance. Jefferson already stopped re- running down interceptions. 31:24 That's not his job description anymore. See if that happens or see if it develops. 31:28 You at least have the next six or seven games to seriously figure out what this young man's capable of, because after that, you're at a crossroads, you're at a decision. Maybe they trade him for Penix straight up. 31:38 Oh, man. [laughs] Just, I'm just saying dumb stuff here, man. That would be wild. Yeah, I don't know. That would be wild. But, but, but here's the thing. 31:46 You talk about what he is a- a- and trying to figure out what he can be. Mm-hmm. I kind of wonder if this is just the JJ McCarthy experience, if this- Mm-hmm... 31:55 is just what JJ McCarthy is as a quarterback, because not only do I vividly remember sitting at Beaver Stadium and watching Michigan beat Penn State by running the ball 20- A million times... 30 plays- [laughs]... 32:06 in the second half. Right. Right? Like, they just hand off to Corum, hand off to Corum, hand off to Corum, touchdown. Maybe he threw it twice in the entire second half of that game. 32:14 So you look back at the numbers at Michigan. He never surpassed 3,000 yards in three seasons in Ann Arbor. He never had more than 22 passing touchdowns in a season. 32:24 He threw for more than 300 passing yards only twice, and he was held to under 150 passing yards eight times in his collegiate career as a three-year starter with the Wolverines. 32:36 I remember going into that NFL draft and, and, and looking at the, the Vikings taking him in the first round, just wondering- Yeah... uh, maybe, maybe Mc- O'Connell thinks he can fix him, but- Right... 32:48 it, it just doesn't feel like an NFL quarterback ready to walk into a passing-oriented situation. Yeah, I, I, I remember watching the McCarthy film. It was very easy to watch 'cause he didn't throw the ball much. Right. 33:02 So it's like, ah, two hours watching film. I'm done. Wow, I've watched every throw he's made in his senior s- final season. And sort of t- I, I talk myself into him. 33:09 It's like, well, if you g- get com- these combination of throws, these throws when you're down by a touchdown in the fourth quarter, these throws on third and long, whatever. 33:17 But I, now that I hear myself, it's like you're talking yourself into him, you know? You don't have to talk yourself into Jayden Daniels when you were watching him, you know? 33:23 You didn't have to talk yourself into these other guys. And I think that might be what we could be scraping our heads against right now. Kwesi Adofo-Mansah and, and O'Connell and other evaluators around the league 33:36 saw the leadership sauce. Yes. Saw the, you know, saw the hardball trusts him, and when the game on the line and he needed to make two throws, he made two throws. 33:44 You know, the game on the line against the Bears this week, when he had to make two throws, he made two throws. But the games had never been on the line. Right. Right. Right. 33:54 And he only got in the position to make two, those two throws because, you know, the Bears with, with Williams, that's another conversation, kept putting the ball back, putting the ball back, putting the ball back, kicked a field goal. 34:03 Return man brought it back to, like, the third, you know, the other 30-yard line, a handoff to, to, um, Mason, touchdown. Oh, now we're in the game. So then after that, McCarthy makes those throws. 34:13 You need to make more than two throws a game. [laughs] Yeah, and, and- It, it-... there's a lot of talk about, like, he's only five games into his career, and I, and I- Yeah... and I get that. I, I understand that. Yeah. 34:22 And, and w- we, this might just be scratching the surface of what he is, but it's five games into a career where you're in the, quote-unquote, ideal situation. Yes, the crystal. 34:32 You have a quarterback whisperer head coach who supposedly i- is great at developing quarterbacks. Mm-hmm. You have one of the top two to three wide receivers in the NFL, maybe better than that, in Justin Jefferson. 34:44 You have a pretty good offensive line. You have Jordan Addison. You have Hawkinson at tight end. You have two really good running backs in Aaron Jones and Jordan Mason. 34:52 Uh, p- sorry, you're a first-round pick coming from a- Yeah... Power Five program. You, you should be better than this- Yes... right now, right? 34:59 And, and it's not a Drake Maye situation where you look at Drake Maye this year, who is arguably the front runner for MVP based on what he's doing with that team and the upgrades they made around him. 35:10 The biggest upgrade was they got him a QB whisperer offensive coordinator, which JJ McCarthy already has in a head coach. 35:17 So, uh, it, the, the situation couldn't be better, the supporting cast couldn't be better, and yet he's playing like a fringe NFL quarterback. 35:25 He's playing like a guy who has 25th in the league in big time throws with a big time wide receiver as the focal point. 35:31 He's playing worse than Carson Wentz, and Carson Wentz was playing behind the makeshift line, and he's got the healthier version of the line. And it's the same thing w- that we were saying with Penix. 35:40 These aren't the stereotypical Jets-Browns situations. Yeah. Where it's like, "Ah, we don't have anybody, and you've only got one guy to throw to, and our offensive line's a mess." 35:48 These are stable offenses that you walk directly into, and that's why- Right... r- a- and, and that's why, like, you get this, like, "No, I don't wanna be patient in this one." You know? 35:59 Cam, you talk about Cam Ward, I'll be patient with Cam Ward all you want. It's like, yeah, he has no one to throw to, no line. They, they had to fire the coach. The situation's a mess down there. 36:08 But Penix and McCarthy, you are sophomore quarterbacks. You, you got these veteran receivers, b- stable offensive line, good defenses. You have a very good defense in Minnesota. You should be, 36:18 you should be Bo Ni- you should be Bo Nix. Yeah. You should be better than Bo Nix. 36:22 You should be better than Bo Nix right now, who goes out there and it's like, "Ah, my, I'm not that good, and my, uh, supporting cast ain't that good, but the defense kept us in the game. I'm gonna get, get us a win. 36:31 Don't worry about it." You should at least be that, and McCarthy is nowhere near that, and Penix is injured.Right. A- and it's just bad news bears all around there. 36:40 And you look at Pittsburgh, a- and we move over to the Aaron Rodgers situation on Sunday. Mm-hmm. Um, the broken wrist certainly throws a bit of a monkey wrench into that AFC North race now, doesn't it? 36:52 Yeah, and, uh, now what's weird, uh, I'm watching this unfold 'cause Rodgers says he doesn't need surgery. It's left wrist, remember, it's not his throwing wrist. Doesn't need surgery and he wants to play next week. 37:01 Well, what Rodgers wants, Rodgers gets. Did it feel like there was a little bit of a breath of fresh air when Mason Rudolph got into the game? I talked to Jared Bailey about it. He felt that way. 37:12 Like suddenly we're not building the entire ship around protecting grandpa anymore. We don't need to run seven tight ends on the field at the same time- [laughs]... to keep Aaron Rodgers upright. 37:24 A- and that's kind of where my, my brain went when you started talking about this, that- Mm-hmm... the, the injury is the injury, a- and I believe that he is hurt. I believe all those things. Oh, gosh. 37:33 And it is a broken wrist, and the Steelers want none of that smoke that the Ravens got when they weren't exactly honest on the injury report regarding Lamar Jackson. He wants to play and all those things. 37:42 But could the wrist have been used as kind of a soft benching last week to kind of let, let Mason Rudolph have his chance? Because if you look at the last two games, it hasn't been good for Aaron Rodgers. No. 25 of 46, 37:57 277 yards, two touchdowns, two picks, four sacks. Yeah. His QBRs in those two games, 37.5 and 4.4. Oof. Not, not ideal. It- Not, not what you want. 38:12 And he was facing the Bengals defense without Trey Henrick- Hendrickson last week. That is the easiest defense in the world, and the, the, um, 38:21 Steelers I think had one good drive, and then were not able to move the ball at all for the rest of the half against a team that everybody just runs up and down the field on. 38:30 So it does start to feel like, yeah, everything Rodgers is doing is all part of this elaborate plan to protect him. Rudolph wasn't great shakes. 38:39 They got defensive touchdowns late in that game, but it looked like a normal offense. Yeah. Yeah. I- it looked like it could be functional. It, it looked- Yeah... 38:46 like, you know, you, you, you run it out there, kind of like what Arthur Smith tried to do in Atlanta. You, you, you weren't restructuring everything just around Aaron Rodgers. 38:55 It's gonna be interesting Sunday, you know, when, when they- Yeah... go out there against Chicago. I mean, they, they lead the league in takeaways. Yeah. Plus 16 turnover differential. 39:03 Two of the, the leading interceptions, Kevin Byard and Tremaine Edmunds, they're the two leaders in interceptions across the league right now. 39:11 W- if Aaron Rodgers plays, it, it will be interesting to see if you get the Aaron Rodgers that you saw, um, a few weeks ago at home against the Colts, when it looked like everything was clicking for Pittsburgh, including on the offense, while the defense was completely stifling, uh, the greatest show not on grass. 39:28 Um. [laughs] But, or do you get the Aaron Rodgers that you saw last week and in Los Angeles who wanted... It looked like he wanted no part of the festivities. No, he... And, and that's the thing. 39:38 Sometimes it's like, "I don't wanna be involved in this game," where possible. Quick point about the Bears takeaways. I'm gonna remind you of the quarterbacks they faced. 39:46 They faced McCarthy twice, they have faced Geno Smith. They have faced a combination platter of Spencer Rattler and Tyler Shuck. Um, they faced, uh, was that Snoop Huntley or was it Cooper Rush? 39:56 I forget, when they had the Ravens. I believe that was Cooper Rush. Cooper, Cooper Rush. Yeah. It was Cooper Rush. 40:01 Uh, they, they had Flacco, and then they had the sampler platter of Jaxson Dart, concussed Jaxson Dart, and Russell Wilson in that game. So you can see where the Bears are right now. 40:12 So now they're either going to get broken wrist Rodgers or Mason Rudolph. The streak continues for them. They're do- they're doing what they need to do against these opponents. They're getting interceptions, et cetera. 40:22 But it will be an interesting game. I kinda think of this as sort of a fraud-on-fraud game. 40:27 And the thing about fraud-on-fraud action is that somebody gets to keep the con going for another week, and I'm curious to see who that's going to be. 40:35 Yeah, and, and we're gonna find out a lot about the Bears, not just against the Steelers, but they face the second-most difficult remaining strength of schedule in the NFL. Yes. Opponents with a 592 winning percentage. 40:45 The Eagles, the Packers twice- Mm-hmm... the 49ers, the Lions, and the Steelers, uh, before they end up at some point playing the Cleveland Browns. Yes. So it, it is a difficult road. 40:55 I, I, I give them a lot of credit because they're finding ways to win. Yeah. And, and, and, and macro big picture, I think that those are the type of wins that build cultures. I think those- Yeah... 41:05 are the type of wins that build confidence. You'd rather be leading the league in takeaways and, and beating the quarterbacks that you're beating right now- Yeah... than losing to them. 41:14 You're buying yourself some margin for error this year, potentially some confidence and goodwill next year and beyond. Yeah. But yeah, we're, we're gonna find out what they are. 41:22 We're gonna find out what Aaron Rodgers is at this point, if he plays. Absolutely. And, and that's exactly it with the Bears, where it's like 41:30 you're, you're, you're seeing something come together, but you're not seeing this seven and three powerhouse that you might see in the standings. Right. Right. Right. 41:37 And, and, you know, well, what helps them is the Packers are the only team in the league with the more difficult strength of schedule, with a 592 winning percentage. 41:46 They get the Broncos, the Bears twice, the Lions, the Vikings twice, and I think that Tankathon needs to move the Ravens off of the easier opponents side of the slider. 'Cause it's broken down- Okay... 41:59 as toughest opponents and easiest opponents. The Ravens no longer belong on that easiest opponents side of the ledger. Yeah. Let me... To, to... 42:05 And that's why you can go to, uh, FTN Network, and you get the DVOA version of these things, where it'll give you a slightly different look at that. And I'm going with future schedule there. 42:14 It's not gonna be that different, but, uh, the Packers... Wait, they're still, they have a middle-of-the-pack. 42:21 That's odd that they have a middle-of-the-pack future schedule according to this, 'cause the Colts have the toughest future schedule. Interesting. Um, right. 42:28 But everyone agrees, everyone agrees on the Bears certainly, that the Bears have a very challenging future schedule ahead. Yes, they do. A- and, and a challenging situation, um, with-Bryce Young in Carolina. Yes. 42:39 Uh, eh, you know, you look at what they're doing, Rico Dowdle continues to run wild. The running game continues to be their identity. W- what do you make of Carolina in that situation? 42:50 Right now I am googling because they, uh, uh, uh, we were promised a Bryce Young injury update. He has an injured ankle. He hurt his ankle. 42:59 He got stepped on by pretty much the rest of both teams, uh, when he fell down on fourth and short. 43:05 Came back into the game because one thing we never question about Bryce Young is whether he wants to get out there and fricking win games. That's never the question with him. 43:12 Um, and there doesn't seem to be any news update. Um, he- for the rest of the season it's like, well, if Bryce Young is healthy, you play him, and if not, Andy Dalton goes out and loses. Right. [laughs] Right. 43:27 That's best theory. And, and you look at, and you look at what they are. I mean, they're the ninth place team right now in the NFC. According to NFL Media, they have a 21% chance of making the postseason. Right. 43:37 So I, I guess it matters if, if Bryce Young- Yeah... is out there, but you start looking at the remaining strength of schedule, and they're right up there at the top. They're third- Yes... 43:44 in the league, 5 and 90 winning percentage, games against the Rams, the Seahawks, the Bucs twice, which will be a defining stretch for both teams- Yeah... and the 49ers. 43:53 So you, you're hoping if you're Carolina that Bryce Young plays. You're hoping that- Yeah... the Rico Dowdle show continues to travel. 44:00 You're hoping that Tedarrell McMillan is the playmaker that he looked like on Sunday the rest of the way. 44:06 Eh, it might be one of the more consequential injuries that we're talking about here based on what they need and what they have in front of them. That's right. 44:13 You hope, you hope the Falcons reappear on the schedule five more times instead of the Buccaneers. The, the Panthers rank 26th in DVOA. They are the sixth worst team in the NFL. 44:22 'Cause when you look at when they get beat, they get destroyed, and when they face decent teams that aren't the Falcons or whatever, they get destroyed, and then they'll cough up a loss to the Saints. 44:32 So you want Young out there because Young has these terrible games, and he has these okay games. 44:37 Then he has these streaks in the fourth quarter where he suddenly is like Doug Flutie, and you're like, "Okay, well, whatever that was, that was," and Ted McMillan and Rico will make plays for him. Um, 44:48 moving forward from that, then you have the future for this young man, and you- my first instinct says this guy is, is what we, what we just described is his ceiling. 44:57 He's always gonna be a Flutie magic guy now and then, and then you lose to the Saints now and then guy. 45:03 But in a world of JJ McCarthy and Michael Penix and all these other guys, I can't, I couldn't in good conscience say, "Ah, you gotta give up on Bryce Young." Don't give him $250 million yet, or ever, if you can avoid it, 45:18 but don't give up on him just yet. [laughs] And keep building around him, because the- Yeah... quarterback factory, the quarterback factory's down for, for, uh, re- recommissioning. R- It's, it's, it's- Yeah. Right... 45:28 not great. They're refurbishing the quarterback factory. 45:30 When you start thinking about Justin Fields, Kyler Murray, and Trevor Lawrence as your veteran quarterback options, you look at a draft class that's not living up to the billing that we thought it would going into this year, i- if you're the Ba- if you're the, the Panthers, keep, keep adding. 45:44 Go, go get another young wide receiver early in the draft. Keep, keep improving the offensive line in front of him. Keep giving him weapons. You found a running back who's still relatively cheap, I think. 45:54 I'm not sure what the contract is after this year. But you found a running back that seems to be working. Don't throw him out with the bath water, a- and, and if he's healthy enough to play, go make a run. 46:04 I mean, it, it, it's in front of you to potentially steal a wildcard spot depending on tiebreakers. I- if he can play, play him. It's not a Jaxson Dart situation where you're holding him back- No... 46:14 for the concussion because he's- It's-... the future. You have nothing to play for. Right. This is something to play for this year for them. 46:20 And that's an ankle, not a concussion, where you're not worried about, like, you're gonna get repeated i- injuries. Did you see where they asked Tua after they played in Madrid what other city he'd like to play in? 46:30 Did you hear what he said? Uh, I'm gonna guess something like, uh, Maui or, or, uh, Honolulu. Or what, what other city did he say? Jerusalem. 46:42 This is a, this is a young man who's come a little too close to crucifixion in the past. I don't think he wants to go anywhere near Jerusalem. He- Can we please leave Mike McDaniel in Madrid? 46:53 Could we have just left him there? He would've been happier there. He would've been. It's, it's in his element. 46:59 Uh, but, but, but I'm watching that game on Sunday, I don't think I've ever been more frustrated by anything watching the NFL than that short yardage offense from the Dolphins. What the hell were they doing? 47:09 Like, what were you doing? And, and then you decide not to kick the field goal at the end of the game that would've effectively put it on ice? Like, I, I, I know they won, right? I, I know they- Yeah... 47:20 they pulled it out in overtime, but, like, end of game management, goal line situations, it feels like a firing and a leaving on the tarmac in Madrid would've been a mercy killing, that it would've been better off for him and the Dolphins and everybody involved to just, you know, wipe the slate clean. 47:35 You already fired the GM. Pull him out of here. It's done. It's not working. There, there's a little bit of a feeling with that team where it's like McDaniel goes out there to try and get fired, and he accidentally wins. 47:47 [laughs] Like, "Oh, no, we won." It's like, "I'll throw, I'll have, I'll have Tua throw some bombs. That'll do it." Oh, they drop the interceptions. "I'll do a quintuple reverse flare pass to Davone A- Achan." 47:58 Oh, no, Achan is now three steps faster than Bobby Wagner, so he's gonna score a touchdown. Like, like, like, there's nothing you can do. 48:04 That would've been a loss by two touchdowns to a real team that didn't have Marcus Mariota, which was basically Tua the senior, at quarterback. That w- didn't have Chris Moore and Robbie Chosen on the field. 48:16 That, that, that had anybody left on defense that wasn't already halfway into the Hall of Fame and should, and should go there and stay there. Really rough team. But w- w- we're not, we're not doing... 48:27 That's not a quarter... Th- that's the same quarterback disaster we've had all year. Yes. That's not new. And we're going with the fresh ones. We're f- we have another fresh one, uh, teed up? 48:34 We, we do have another fresh one teed up, and, and it's a, it's a fresh narrative situation. Uh, Chipora-Joe Burrow- Yes... 48:41 they, they appear to have opened up the 21-day practice window for, for some reason on Joe Burrow to come back from injury and the turf toe. I'm not sure why. 48:50 I, I'm not sure why Cincinnati would even consider playing Joe Burrow under any circumstances for another down this season, especially- Yeah... behind that offensive line. They're three and seven. 49:01 If you look at NFL media's playoff scenarios, the Bengals have a less than 1% chance of making the postseason. If you're playing Joe Burrow behind that offensive line in a lost season, 49:13 like I'd make an argument that you're endangering Joe Burrow suffering another injury, becoming even more injury-prone than he already is in a season where you have no hope of making the playoffs. 49:23 Where if you let him get healthy, put him on ice, you know, let, let him wear a headset on the sideline and contribute to the game planning and help Zack Taylor- Mm-hmm... 49:31 as an advisor, as an ea- intermediary between Joe Flacco and Ja'Marr Chase, and bring him back into the building, make everybody feel special, but playing him, there, there's no upside there, especially when you go into the off-season, buy a couple offensive linemen, draft well, you fix the defense a little bit. 49:48 We're seeing how mediocre the rest of that division is. A fully healthy Joe Burrow in 2026 adds so much more value than Joe Burrow playing for this team the rest of this season. Right. And NFL media has less than 1%. 50:02 DVOA has 2.9%, that's a little different. DVOA is not aware that the Bengals will be playing the, um, the Patriots this week without Ja'Marr Chase. 50:14 Un- unless Ja'Marr Chase's, uh, appeal of his suspension, and his appeal logic is that, "If I wanted to, if I wanted to spit Jalen and Ramsey, I would've hit him straight in the face." 50:25 That's literally what he thinks his appeal is. Like he- Yeah... like this is, uh, like, like this is... We, we had kids who would go into, like the, the principal's office and say stuff like that, 50:37 and it's, so do you think that, do you think that helps? Do you think that makes you look better? That... Right. Right. 50:42 So, so Chase is gonna be out this week, and that probably means a loss to the Patriots, who always catch some team when it's their fifth-string quarterback or whatever. Hopefully, that's the end of- Oh, stop. 50:52 Oh, stop with you. They go down to Tampa Bay and they boat race them, right? Trevion Henderson has a couple of explosions of his own. It was not a boat race. It was not a boat race. 50:59 You need to go back and watch that game. It was not a boat race. The other- No, I wa- I watched the game. The weapons- You watched the highlights. You watched the highlights... the defense made big stops. 51:07 Christian Gonzalez- Mm-hmm... made some big plays. I mean, I think Tampa- You know where, you know where the Pa-... this is Tampa... Guess right now. Guess right now where the Patriots rank in DVOA. 12th. Guess again. 51:20 Higher or lower? Lower. Really? Yes. Okay. Okay. DVOA, based out of Farmington, Massachusetts, so not based out of, like my psyche or based out of, like some hair- I think, I think, I think there's an office at Gillette. 51:34 I think that when you go to Gillette- [laughs]... it's like going to the Jets practice facility where they, they have the little doors for their- Yeah... favorite beat writers. 51:41 They have their own private cubicles, and you can shut the door. I think there's an FTN office in the press box at, uh, Gillette Stadium. 51:47 Well, the way, the way Aaron Schatz described it, he, he wishes there was an office he could close the door, 'cause the, the, the, uh, the Patriots are 18th- Okay... in DVOA. Okay? 51:56 And they played very, very well against the Buccaneers. I'm coming after you a little bit with that. They went out there, and then they played Green Rutgers on Thursday night, and they struggled with them a little bit. 52:04 Let's be honest. They struggled with Green Rutgers a little bit. We're not talking about the Jets, mind you. 52:08 We're talking about the current Jets without Quinnen Williams, without Sauce Gardner, with Garrett Wilson injured, and it was like, "Ah, yeah, we're pulling away in the fourth quarter." Anyway, that's the Patriots. 52:17 They're going to beat the Bengals without Ja'Marr Chase. Most green- Yeah, yeah, and Donny Mitchell out there trying to catch passes like this. Uh, he, he had no hands. [laughs] Oh, my God. Donny Mitchell. 52:29 Send him to, [laughs] send, send him to the wizard. Go get some hands. Oh, he, uh, uh, Donny... I, I gotta do a joke, like a Donny Wi- Mitchell and Dontayvion Wi- uh, Wicks walk into a bar, and I have to finish the joke. 52:41 Like every bar glass is replaced- They get, they get their drinks... Right. Right. Everybody, they put straws in all the drinks, so they can- [laughs]... can go like that, so you don't have to hold them. Uh, 52:51 anyways, hopefully that's the end of the Burrow story. Like Burrow says, "Okay," and you're right. You know what? Fire Keller. Make Burrow the coach, 'cause he, he wants to be involved. 52:59 That's obviously what you were saying. Like give him his headset. He, he, he needs to be out there in some capacity. 53:04 Give him whatever weird responsibility you do, but say, "No," and if Flacco's too hurt, throw Jake Browning out there to throw interceptions and just get through the season. Right. That, that's where I'm at. 53:13 A- and you can rob the Bengals of 2026 and their upside if Joe Burrow gets hurt for an extended- Yes... period of time at the end of this year. Yes. 53:21 I, I, I just, I, I hear them opening the practice window, and I just, I don't understand. I, like, uh, that, that is peak NFL dysfunction. That- Right... that is, that is an egregious, you know, waste of resources. 53:34 It's an egregious risk that, that's not worth taking. I, I hope they don't play him because, I mean, I'm a, I'm a Burrow believer. I still think that when healthy, one of the premier quarterbacks in the league. Yeah. 53:44 It's a great situation. I just hope they don't play him. But the last one, the last catastrophe we need to dive into, um, Shador Sanders made his debut against the Ravens on Sunday night, and, um, 53:56 I, I think that if it hasn't already happened, we're soon gonna start to see people reevaluate their priors on Shador Sanders. Right? 54:04 I mean, we have to because the, the, everybody defending Shador Sanders, the prospect, the player who was benched behind then Joe Flacco, eventually Dylan Gabriel, now gets to become the NFL player that NFL evaluators said had a round three grade based on the tape. 54:22 Mm-hmm. 54:22 Gets drafted in round five, and everybody talking and screaming after the draft that there was some vast conspiracy, and he should've gone in the first round, and all of these things, and he shouldn't be quarterback three. 54:33 He should definitely have a chance to win the starting job. Maybe Stefanski knew what he was doing there, who knows? 54:38 But it feels like we're about to see the NFL evaluators were probably right about Shador Sanders and what he is versus what people hoped that he would beThat, that's it, and it's, and it's the, the talent, it's the readiness. 54:53 We're not gonna talk, like, character, we're talking about readiness. Right. 54:56 They're coming into the s- situation where you have to be a leader, and you have to be a, a, who, s- super professional, and, uh, your dad's not there to clean up spills for you. 55:05 And like, it was one of the worst performances I've seen off the bench by a, by a quarterback in a long time. 55:12 The, unless we're talking about some, like, Josh Johnson type, uh, who was like, he, "On Thursday, we gra- grabbed this guy and he had to play." Like, that's what it looked like. Like Joe Flacco. 55:21 Like Joe Flacco going in there, and they played well after being there for four days, or Baker Mayfield signs- Right... 30 hours before he had to play for the Rams, uh- Right... a couple years ago. Remember that? 55:30 It s- Remember Josh-... didn't work for them... remember Josh Dobbs? Yes. 55:34 Him and O'Connell scratching the plays together and, uh, a- and everything, and Josh Dobbs is a guy who one of his greatest skills was his readiness and, uh, and, like, his, his, his professionalism, and so he gets a couple wins under those circumstances. 55:45 And you got Shedeur, who has been with the team from the beginning, and yeah, he takes third team reps and he takes second team reps, whatever, goes out there, is just a deer in the headlights, and looks like he's just playing recess playground ball. 55:57 And I, I hope to see something better than that. I hope to see something that, like, has some semblance of hope, but I'm... That's really a fingers crossed thing. 56:05 The conspiracy theorists are still out there, and it almost becomes like the, the real Shedeur Sanders is the friends you made along the way, or this version of a guy that you've put up in your head, or this, this straw man that you want to defend- Uh-... 56:19 uh, that he's, yeah, that he's getting this bad rap and all, and it's like, well, I, I'm sorry, but sometimes a young individual is who they are. Right. 56:26 A- and if you just wanna look at it from a tape standpoint, go back- Yeah... and watch at Colorado, he, he, he holds the ball for forever and a day. Yes. Yes. 56:33 There, there were a lot of I wanna play hero ball to avoid this sack interceptions. Yes. Uh, you, you still had Travis Hunter there, right? Yeah. You still had some weapons at Colorado a- and you took a lot of bad sacks. 56:46 You took a lot- Yes... of sacks in the pocket where you had opportunity to throw the ball- Right... away, but it turns into a 22-yard loss, right? Like- Right. Right... 56:54 eventually, when you start looking at that tape, and you just take the name off the back of the jersey, and that's how these coaches and scouts evaluate them. They're, they're looking- Yeah... 57:02 at it's number, number 12, right? That, that's how coaches refer to these guys in meetings- Right... uh, you know, when they're breaking down tape for games and breaking down prospects. 57:10 You take the name off the back of the jersey, Shedeur Sanders is by grade, according to people I spoke to after the draft, a third round pick. Right. 57:18 A third round quarterback, and people were t- saying he should've been drafted in the top 10 picks. It's just- Right... you, you, you create this image of a player- Uh-huh... 57:27 that you thought he was that he just isn't, and you put him out there against the Baltimore Ravens of all teams, that smell blood in the water, need that game- Right... 57:35 desperately, are starting to get healthy, when healthy are one of the most dominant defenses in the league, and you get a one for four for 16 yards and a brutal interception, right? [laughs] I mean, it's, and two sacks. 57:45 Like, it just, it, it is what he is. He is what he is, and he can get better from here. Nobody's saying he can't develop from here, but he needs to be the guy who wants it, and needs to- Yeah... 57:53 put all of those questions about disrespecting coaches and disrespecting fellow prospects during top 30 visits aside, do the work- Right... s- do the film study, all those things to get better. 58:04 Because as a quarterback, he just, going into the NFL, he was never that great of a prospect, and obviously not that great of a, a, a ready player right now. 58:13 You talk about the sacks he took in college, and he took a lot of them, and, uh, I, I think he led the league in sacks. I, I wrote it up m- months ago, a huge amount. 58:21 I think a lot of, especially media scout guys, when they evaluate, whatever they're using, their cutoffs, it's like, "Give me all the pass plays," or, "Give me all the, the throws." 58:31 And whenever there is a sack, either they don't see it, or they're like, "Well, that was a sack. Well, obviously that's the fault of offensive line or whatever." 58:37 It's like, no, those are really a big part of the equation. They were part of the equation with Caleb last year. He has mitigated those with Ben Johnson's help. They're a huge part with Shedeur. And- Yeah... 58:50 on the one hand, winnable game, 'cause you got the Raiders next week, on the other hand, you got Max Crosby. And if you look at the offensive line of the Browns, it's really struggling right now. 58:59 Uh, Conklin's been hurt, and Conklin's also gotten pretty old. Yeah. They've had, like, five different left tackles. I'm not sure who the left tackle is right now. 59:06 The guys in the middle who you remember from five or six years ago are still there, and you remember them from five or six years ago, like guys like Wyatt Teller. 59:14 So think about that in terms of, like, what they've got left. Shedeur has no one to throw to. It's a really bad situation. 59:22 You want somebody who can come in and at least kinda do what Dylan Gabriel is, which is try to work within himself and all. I don't think we're gonna get that with Shedeur Sanders. 59:29 I'll, I'll go so far as to say I, I haven't looked into how severe the injury is for Dylan Gabriel, but play, play it short the rest of the way, right? I mean, you've, you've gotten the sample size of Dylan Gabriel. 59:40 Mm-hmm. You've evaluated him. It's pr- play it short. When- S- so, so see if he, see if he improves. See if he g- offers you enough to be QB two going into next year- Right... 59:50 or if you think that he can be the guy, because you're armed with the draft capital to go get a quarterback, right? Like, uh, I, I just think you need to know, and- Yeah... 1:00:00 I, I don't think you're starting from a great place from a foundation to build a quarterback on. Right. 1:00:04 But similar to Kevin O'Connell, Kevin Stefanski, decent coach when it comes to quarterbacks, you know, g- go s- go see what he is. Evaluate him. Yeah, a- and also see how the narrative around him spins. Yeah. 1:00:18 How does he respond after a win? 'Cause you might get a win against the Raiders, you got the Titans coming up. How does he respond against a loss? How does he respond if he has a two or three interception game? 1:00:27 And you do, uh, the, it's almost like for your reputation and your sanity if you're Barry, if you're, uh, a Stefanski, you do have to, like, take that conspiracy theory narrative and say, and, and just put this guy out there. 1:00:39 Like, I'm remembering the Tebow situation. Yeah. It's like you have to keep putting Tebow out there until he loses by four touchdowns to the Patriots in the playoffs. 1:00:47 Look, this is what it really is.And we're just at the beginning of that, at the beginning of that journey with Shedeur, but let's, let's let it unfold because- You can, you can, you can take it off the table too, because if he, if, if he plays like he played on Sunday after a full week of first team reps- Mm-hmm... 1:01:02 multiple weeks of first team reps, all of a sudden the conspiracy theory goes away and people get real quiet, because the- Right... the tape, it, it becomes a reality. A- and- Right... if he plays off the charts- Good... 1:01:12 okay, there was a conspiracy about, oh, you, you should have played him sooner, okay, well we can play him next year. We can play him- Yeah, we-... he's good and, and, and we're, we're, we are vindicated. 1:01:21 Or, or right, right, or, or a lot of the negativity was chatter. Right. A lot of neg- but, but, but in the case of somebody like Stefanski, look, we, we, we gave him an opportunity. 1:01:28 When we felt the time was right, he responded to it, then we kept giving him the opportunity. 1:01:32 But yet, you know, it's like, okay, you know, mea culpa, too much negativity, too much, you know, narrative spinning, whatever, if he gets to that point. We're not off to an auspicious start. No, not at all. Not at all. 1:01:44 [laughs] I, I, I think we've had a lot of negativity on this pod, so I wanna spin it ahead to, to next week. What's your circle at game? What do you got? What do you got eyes on this week? I took the big one this time. 1:01:55 I took- The big one... the Colts versus the Chiefs, which is, uh, kind of a do or die game for the Chiefs. I'm trying to pull up... I'm not gonna be able to pull the stats up that Aaron Schatz just sent me right now. 1:02:06 But this is gonna be an opportunity to see the Colts, uh, against one- this is the t- biggest Colts game at least since 2020 when they were in the playoffs with Philip Rivers. 1:02:15 It might be the biggest Colts game since the Deflategate game against the Patriots. I don't know. Um, one thing about this- The Chiefs keep running into these, because they ran into Denver last week. 1:02:23 It was the biggest game in at least- Yeah... a decade, maybe since Super Bowl 50. They treated it as such. Their fans treated it as such. And you look at what that defense went out and they did to Patrick Mahomes. 1:02:34 I talked to a scout about it right after the game. They can get home with four. They, they can get home with four- Yeah... 1:02:39 whenever they want, and they can blitz, uh, Nick Bonito either as a linebacker, they can blitz him off the edge, they can move him around, they create havoc. So the Chiefs kind of keep running into these buzzsaws. Yeah. 1:02:51 They're, they're gonna get another one. They're gonna get, uh, in, in another colossal test of can we close the book? Can we drive a nail into the coffin of this AFC West, uh, behemoth? 1:03:01 Right, and, and it's, it is the proverbial when you're on top, everyone's coming for you, and everyone really is coming for you, and now you're a little more vulnerable. 1:03:08 And the Colts can't get home with four, generally speaking, but not only is Sauce Gardner in the fold now, but the buzz is Charvarius Ward might be back. 1:03:20 And they ha- so that's two Pro Bowl caliber corners with Pro Bowl caliber Kenny Moore in the slot. So the Colts, on the one hand, you're like, oh, Danny Jones is gonna fall. 1:03:29 He was starting to fall off before the bye, and I think that's true to some extent. They might now have the best cornerback trio in the NFL- Right... as they embark on a very difficult stretch down the road. 1:03:39 So they're a very interesting team. So that's my circle at game. What do you got? And they're also really good- So- They're also really good against the run, right? Yeah. 1:03:45 And the Chiefs don't even try to run the ball, and you have Zaire Franklin up front, good friends of the program. Uh- Yeah... Cody Pay has done some nice things. Latu Latu. 1:03:53 You know, they, they have some pieces that can stop the run, and the Chiefs can't seem to get their running game going. Uh, we, we touched briefly on my circle at game, but I'm going Steelers-Bears. Yeah. 1:04:02 I really like this game because I think that it's a litmus test for both. 1:04:07 They're, they're both leading their division, hanging on by the, the tips of their fingertips, and i- it's, it's a game the Bears need for further validation. 1:04:16 It's a game the Steelers need just to keep pace, uh, uh, ahead of and fend off the Baltimore Ravens, who now look like the team to beat in that division. Can the Bears continue to win with defense? 1:04:28 Can the Bears lean into this dual running back, uh, K- uh, Kyle Munongai and DeAndre Swift, w- Detroit Lions light look that they have going? Mm-hmm. 1:04:36 Can the Steelers defense do to Caleb what they did to, to Daniel Jones? I just think it's a fascinating game, and I'm a big fan of these teams that are kind of on the come up, the teams that are on the rise- Yeah... 1:04:46 they're building the, the winning cultures and all those things. I, I like seeing what Ben Johnson is doing. I wanna see if it holds up against a team like the Steelers. 1:04:54 It should be a fun game, and you're right, because one thing about watching the Eagles games, especially with their offense, is like, ugh. 1:05:00 And then you watch the Broncos, who are nine and two, and you watch their offense, and it's like, ugh, you know. And the Packers, like, ugh, God. 1:05:07 And then you see these teams, at least there's all kind of weird stuff happening. They're playing well, they're getting wins, but there's, like, wacky surprises in store. 1:05:13 It's not 16 to nine and you're hoping that the final drive goes a certain way. 1:05:18 The, the, there are turnovers and trick plays and Darnell Washington knocking people over and Caleb Williams taking a sack- Taking a sack for 18 yards and a touchdown, right? Yeah. 1:05:26 Like, like- Right, taking a sack- There you go... then running for a touchdown on the next play and a- and, and, and, uh, Philly specials and, and stuff like that. 1:05:32 So that's what makes some of these second tier games a, a, a delight to watch. Mike, what do you have coming up on the Two Deep Zone? I got a Browns tank watch. 1:05:41 Speaking of Shedeur, though I don't go into Shedeur too, too much because my arch enemy in the world, Paul DePodesta, has left the NFL for Major League Baseball. 1:05:51 And I have a few things to say about his illustrious career as the Cleveland Browns head of analytics and vice president of keeping things real. 1:06:01 So I got that coming up, and I've got a Colts feature coming up later this week, probably Friday morning. What do you have coming up? We have the Friday Mailbag coming up on Friday. 1:06:10 You, uh, can get me the questions that you have on social media. It's Matt Lombardo NFL on Threads, Matt Lombardo on Blue Sky, or just hop in the Between the Hash Marks chat. 1:06:19 Uh, I'll pose your questions to NFL coaches, executives, agents, scouts, uh, figure out what they think about the biggest storylines across the league. That's on Friday. 1:06:28 I'm gonna take a couple of, the next couple weeks here in the middle of the weeks and dive into some off-season things to come. Some- Okay... 1:06:35 free agents to watch, some potential next big contracts who could reset their markets, those sort of things. So be on the lookout for that. 1:06:42 And, uh, running a, a pre Blra- Black Friday special, uh, you subscribe e- today or tomorrow, save 30% off forever, and you win two raffle tickets to potentially win a premium subscription for life. 1:06:55 It's a great time- That's-... to jump in. Save now, maybe win a lifetime subscription. I love it. It sounds like a great idea. If I were not a subscriber, I would try to subscribe and take part in this. Love it. 1:07:05 He's Mike Tanier. Make sure you follow him on Blue Sky, Mike Tanier. Subscribe to the Two Deep Zone on Substack. I can't recommend it highly enough, especially Walk Through. 1:07:13 It's part of my Monday morning routine each and every Monday. Subscribe to Between the Hash Marks on Substack. Subscribe to the Apple Podcast or version, all of the Between the Hash Marks podcast. 1:07:23 And please, leave us those five-star reviews. We wanna get the ratings up. We're currently a 4.7 out of 5. I think we can improve on that, and we will read the five-star reviews on the show next week. 1:07:35 We have 70 people in the room. Really enjoy- Yeah... everybody taking out the time in the afternoon to, to hang out with us, talk some football with us. We enjoy this every week. 1:07:43 Mike, these live podcasts have been a ton of fun. They've been a lot of fun. Let's do one next week. We can squeeze one in before Thanksgiving, right? Oh, absolutely. 1:07:50 Oh, next week, Thanksgiving, we'll have to have Sophia, my daughter, reprise her role picking the Thanksgiving games. Oh, that's a great idea. 1:07:59 Remember last year we had her come on and she gave the winners for the Thanksgiving, three Thanksgiving games? We'll do that again. She was, she was asking when she can come back on the pod. Perfect. 1:08:07 Great chance to do it. Perfect. We'll move it a little back so it's after school time, and we'll do it then. Sounds like a plan, man. Should be a lot of fun. Thanks everybody for joining. 1:08:14 Uh, Mike, go eat some Oreos or something.
