Transcript 0:00 [rock music] We're live. Welcome to another action-packed edition of the Between the Hash Marks podcast. 0:09 As always, I'm Matt Lombardo, and I'm joined by my friend, colleague, mentor, and the purveyor of the Two Deep Zone, Mike Tanier. And Mike- Yeah... I think I need to issue a bit of an apology to you, my friend. Really? 0:22 It's so rare that I'm the recipient of an apology. I, I deserve so many, but receive so few. What, what, what's this one about? 0:28 I neglected to wish you a happy anniversary, because as I was editing last week's podcast, I was searching through, frantically searching through the files on my laptop for the episode that we recorded, uh, last Wednesday afternoon, and I realized that it was actually the anniversary of our first Between the Hash Marks podcast. 0:51 So this is one year and one week to the day since we, since we launched this podcast, because of course I accidentally loaded up last year's episode one into the editing software and realized, wait a minute, I, I have a few, uh, less gray hairs, uh, in that video than I have right now. 1:09 So happy anniversary to you, my friend. Happy 53-week anniversary. I, I, I think that's the cardboard anniversary officially. Yeah, or, or, or maybe a scented candle. Uh, there, there's a- [laughs]... 1:22 a, a wood smoke bourbon scented candle over there that I could probably- Yeah... light up for the occasion. The football scented candle. Uh, th- that's it. No, scented candle's too good. 1:30 That's got to be like the third wedding anniversary or something like that, we're on to scented candles. But one year it's, it's, it's cardboard, or papier-mâché or, or pipe cleaners or something. For, for sure. 1:42 And of course, if we have an action-packed show. There are lo- lots of news- Yeah... on the quarterback front going into this week. 1:48 Uh, the, there's potentially major Micah Parsons news coming down the pipe, and we'll get to all that. 1:53 But if you enjoy the podcast, if you enjoy our work, please subscribe to the Two Deep Zone on Substack, where you can read all of Mike's hijinks, uh, melded around some of the best football analysis you'll ever read. 2:05 You can subscribe to Between the Hash Marks on Substack to read my, uh, insider reporting features and those sort of things. And of course, the podcast. 2:12 Subscribe on Apple Podcasts, check it out on my YouTube channel @MattLombardo975, and please leave us a five-star review. Let us know what you like about the podcast, what you don't. 2:22 And even if you want to rip us a little bit and make fun of us and crack a joke, leave that five star, and then let us know what you don't like, because it does help grow the show, it helps people find us in the algorithm, and it's a big help to both of us. 2:35 It's an attention economy. We crave your attention, not just for financial reasons, for personal reasons. Please pay attention to us. But this is exciting, this is quarterback decision week. 2:46 It, it certainly is, and we're gonna get into a bunch of big decisions. But LisaSharp05 left us a five-star review. Oh, good. 2:53 She said, "I don't always feel welcomed and included in NFL spaces as a woman, but that's not the case here. It's a great podcast that shows football is for everyone." Unquote. 3:04 See, that, w- that's what we get for not being toxic. Yes. It's a good thing. Yes. I, it sounded like a bad thing the way I said it, but it's a good thing. Yeah. And w- we're welcoming here. 3:14 All, all are welcome on this train. 3:16 You know, you want to check us out, you want to listen to the podcast, you want to read us, we're, we're a home for everyone, bridging the NFL, bridging the football gap to any and all comers. Yes. 3:26 Two white cis males, but not that white cis male. Sure. And, and two of the biggest quarterback, you know, storylines to break this summer, uh, happened over the last 24 hours. 3:39 Uh, the, the, the bigge- the most controversial one in my opinion, Mike, is Joe Flacco named the starting quarterback of the Cleveland Browns. Controversial? 3:50 Listen, I, I see Joe Flacco being named the starting quarterback in this light. 3:55 The, the conversation about whether or not Joe Flacco is the best quarterback on the roster is a, an entirely different conversation about whether or not Joe Flacco should be the starting quarterback week one of that team given their situation, given the state of their rebuild, given who they have on the roster already, and given the depth of next spring's NFL draft class at the quarterback position. 4:17 Joe, I, I, Mike, I, I talked about this on social media yesterday. Yeah. And it blows my mind that a team that has started 40 quarterbacks since 1999- Mm-hmm... 4:30 with two rookie quarterbacks on the roster, would start a quarterback rather than use every snap possible to evaluate Dillon Gabriel and Shedeur Sanders. Here's why. Because th- those two are bad and not ready. 4:44 They are not good prospects, and they're not ready even if they were good prospects. That's why. I am not, this is not controversial, this is not strange. 4:55 I, I, I'm sorry, we have to, and this is probably gonna go with the, the Colts, uh, thing too, we have to stop watching pre-season football like we're the dog that falls for the pump fake of the tennis ball. Yeah. 5:08 We all fall for the pump fake. We put Shedeur Sanders out there with the fourth stringers, he runs around in circles like a recess quarterback. 5:16 He kind of throws a couple touchdown passes in like, you know, eight series or whatever, uh, of just, like pure chaos, and we're like, "Oh my God, Shedeur is good." And, like, Shedeur wasn't terrible. 5:25 Again, I'm not saying he was terrible. "Oh, he's good." Then Dillon Gabriel goes out there against the Eagles, throws a pick six, fumbles a snap. 5:32 Like, when he's tr- trying to scramble, y- you know, looks like, uh, somebody's kid trying to run away at the mall or something like that. And we're like, "Oh my God, they have two good options." 5:42 No, they have zero good options. They had one 5:45 maybe, maybe option in Kenny Pickett, who saw an opportunity to be a starting quarterback and got injured as quickly as possible to make sure that we didn't give up the game here in terms of what little Kenny Pickett has to offer.For sure, and I, I don't disagree with any of that. 6:00 I do not disagree- Right. Right... that Dylan Gabriel is not ready or that Shidor Sanders is not ready. I, I, I get that. Yeah. Yeah. But my problem here is, is deeper and higher up than that. 6:10 A- and that is this notion that Jimmy Haslam is putting pressure on, uh, Andrew Berry, the general manager, Kevin Stefanski, and the coaching staff to win now. To me, that roster is not built on offense to win now. 6:24 The, the defense will keep them in a handful of games, but there's too much pressure on that defense to contend in a division that houses a legitimate Super Bowl contender, maybe favorite in the Baltimore Ravens, a legitimate Super Bowl contender in Joe Burrow and the Cincinnati Bengals, and a Steelers defense that is in a lot of ways a mirror image of the defense they have in Cleveland right now. 6:45 To put the expectations that this team is built to win with even a serviceable quarterback, to me I think it, it's setting your coaching staff up to fail. 6:53 To me, it is a, a, a misguided perception and misplaced expectations when you have two quarterbacks who you drafted. 7:00 Now if, if you're trying to win, I would contend that drafting a quarterback in the third round w- was not the move. 7:08 I, I would contend that if you're trying to win now, maybe you look ahead and you draft Caleb Rogers, who's pushing for a, a starting job along the offensive line for the Raiders. 7:19 I'd suggest drafting Jaylen Smith, who might be the number three or number four corner already with the Houston Texans. Yeah. 7:25 But to draft not one, but two quarterbacks a year ahead of what has the potential to be a historically deep quarterback class, and then spend even one snap playing a 40-year-old quarterback, it feels like those goals are incongruent with each other. 7:41 Playing the rookie, playing the veteran to win now while having young rookies that you know nothing about sitting, developing, maybe playing, maybe you have a chance to evaluate later on. 7:51 We know something about these rookies. One is 5'6", the other i- alienated every single person he spoke to in the off-season- Yes... and had success w- by riding his father's coattails. We know something about them. 8:03 We also know both of them got injured during the course of the pre-season. We know a lot about these guys. They are bad prospects and they are not ready. We know a lot about them. Now, the back track, there's a lot here. 8:12 By the way, next year's historic quarterback class, just like last year's next year's, and the year before that's next year's potential historic class? I, I think... 8:19 Was this year, I don't think this year was regarded as a great quarterback class, right? This was the one of the last eight that wasn't going to be a historic quarterback class the, the year afterwards. 8:27 This was like local- A- and la- last year had Caleb, last year had Jayden Daniels, last year had Bo Nix- Mm... last year had, [laughs] uh, J- Drake May. I mean, those are four starting quarterbacks going into this year. 8:40 And next year you're gonna have a Kugler, next year you're gonna have potentially Archie Manning, you're gonna have Allen, you're gonna have a handful of quarterbacks they, that could be chosen midwa- midway through the first round. 8:50 A- and if you're the Browns, I, in my opinion, you need to figure out whether Dylan Gabriel at, at 5'3" is good enough to be the starting quarterback. 9:00 You need to find out if Shidor Sanders, what you saw that made some evaluators outside the league believe he was a first-round talent is there or not, so you know whether you need to draft one next year. 9:12 They're not ready. A- and putting them out there saying, "We're evaluating them," when they're not ready isn't going to help them. It's not gonna keep Myles Garrett with the program. As for Jimmy Ha- 9:22 Ha- Haslam, Jimmy Haslam is a complete moron. He is a moron and a shyster who made his money out of, like, bilking truckers. Yes. That is who this idiot is. 9:33 Now, Andrew Berry and Kevin Stefanski have to know they were working for a moron, a moron who made a i- idiotic decision a couple of years ago with Deshaun Watson. 9:43 I hope that Stefanski and Berry realize that they've got their desks packed and they're ready to go. Nothing they can do is going to work. They're going to get fired because Haslam is going to blame... 9:53 If he's putting pressure on them, what he's saying is, "I need the fall guy, and it's going to be one or both of you, depending on what my mood swing is," et cetera. So that is that. 10:04 A- at this point, I, Stefanski has to look at this and say, "What is my option?" Again, he went into this debacle with no money to spend on quarterback. Right. 10:13 There was no money to spend on quarterback because it's being spent on, on discuss ball. Okay? 10:17 So Flacco and Pickett were supposed to start, uh, Heckle and Jeckle were supposed to compete to be the quarterback of the future. Pickett nopes out of the whole thing because he's Pickett. 10:27 Flacco [laughs] remains healthy and remains somebody who's like, "I will game plan properly. I can't play anymore. I can b-" Flacco can barely play. We know this. 10:36 "I can game plan properly, I can hand off, I can try to launch some passes to Jerry Jeudy, and maybe we get some 16 to 13 wins." This is a no-win situation. 10:47 But the, uh, but like a, you and I can sit here and say, "Well, you know, throw these guys out there." 10:51 I think if there was any belief that either of these guys could do anything besides maybe run around in circles and toss a bomb once in a while and be Dorian Thompson-Robinson like, 11:02 and we saw how great he was for the Eagles, this- Right [laughs] By the way. The guy who spent two years as the run around third round pick, who maybe he's got something. He looked good in that one pre-season game. 11:11 If that was the case, they would have tr- they would have given that opportunity to somebody. They have not. 11:16 A- a- and maybe by week six, week seven, or week eight, the conversation changes in Cleveland and one of these two quarterbacks emerges. I, I just have a hard time justifying investing two draft picks. 11:28 And again, again, a fifth-round pick, you're taking a wild card. 11:30 You, you're betting on, you know, sh- all, all of what happened in buildings around the league just being Shidor, his attitude that you can fix because you see something on the film in Colorado that you really liked. 11:41 Right. 11:41 But, but to take two quarterbacks a- and then, then not, not have them ready to play, w- we're not getting them ready, it just feels like you're spinning your wheels for a franchise that's spent two-plus decades spinning its wheels at the quarterback position. 11:54 And maybe you evaluate them later in the year and they get those opportunities. It just seems like the ceiling isn't high enough to justify playing the veteran. 12:02 But if they're not ready, they're gonna need time to get ready. 12:04 The other, the other big news that dropped, uh, was in Indianapolis shortly before, uh, we went on the air with the podcast-This was, I think we can agree, the right decision. 12:14 The Indianapolis Colts and head coach Shane Steichen choosing Daniel Jones over Anthony Richardson- Mm-hmm... as the starting quarterback going into week one and beyond. You didn't have great options. 12:26 You had two options. You picked the less bad option with maybe some upside because of scheme fit and the couple of moments that he's had already in his career. Yeah. 12:36 And, and this is the one that seems controversial on the socials today, where I was like, "Uh, guys, this was never a competition, honestly." 12:43 They brought in Daniel Jones 'cause they had lost faith in Anthony Richardson last year when he was getting hurt, taking himself out of games, doing all this goofy stuff. 12:51 And then Anthony Richardson goes out and gets hurt during OTAs, gets hurt in the free- first preseason game, gets stupid sacked in the first preseason game, got, got doofus sacked in the last preseason game too, et cetera, did nothing to like show that he deserves to like, "Oh, no, no, you were wrong. 13:08 You didn't need to bring Daniel Jones," and does nothing to do that. And then, "Oh, well, Daniel Jones is a starter," and people are up in arms. Um, y- you and I, we can... 13:15 And again, for all of these things, like, "Well, they should throw Dylan Gabriel out and see what happens. Uh, Anthony Richardson, he's got all this potential. They should throw him out there and see what happens." 13:23 You and I will still be working at our little job here, for what it was worth, next year this time for our second anniversary. Shane Steichen, Kevin Stefanski won't be. That's right. [laughs] They won't be. 13:37 They have to try to preserve their jobs, and when you have to try to preserve your jobs, you start making these very conservative decisions. 13:45 And the very conservative decision is Daniel Jones isn't gonna go out there and make a fool out of my s- m- me and himself and get hurt right away. 13:53 That's what the re- Right, and, and, and, and I, I, I argue that the Anthony Richardson hype train was let out of the barn- Mm-hmm... way too early. 14:02 And, and that I, I don't know that when you look at the numbers so far, of course he got hurt and, and banged up as a rookie. 14:06 A lot of that same sort of pocket unawareness that got him into trouble this summer are the reason why he got hurt, and some of the, taking some big hits on the run not protecting himself, but a 50.6 completion percentage, 2,391 passing yards, 11 touchdowns, 13 interceptions. 14:22 We could talk all we want about the ability to make some highlight level plays here and there on the run a- and his escape ability and those sort of things, but you talk to people inside the league, 14:33 he r- he really soured the relationship with Steichen and the coaching staff with what happened last year with the injury. 14:39 And th- when you look at Daniel Jones, there's a belief among some evaluators that he could be this year's Sam Darnold, which I, I personally, I think is a stretch. No. Right. 14:48 But, but, but I, but I, I think that if you're Shane Steichen and you're that coaching staff and you see Michael Pittman and you see Jonathan Taylor and you see a decent offensive line, and you can kind of look at Daniel Jones as the facilitator, the point guard, the guy who's gonna win from the pocket, escape when he has to, decent scheme fit, I can understand that decision, uh, m- rather easily, rather than betting your, your livelihood, your job, and your career on the, the unicorn that is Anthony Richardson as Michael Vick/Randall Cunningham/Kordell Stewart. 15:23 Right. But don't, don't forget Richardson was part of that historic class with C.J. Stroud and Bryce Young. Bryce Young. Yeah, yeah. Uh, but the... 15:31 W- Richardson, like, uh, we, we talk about this stuff, and I said, "Well, you know, you gotta appease Miles Garrett or whatever." Like last year I was watching Richardson, trying to do an evaluation. 15:39 This was when he was battling Flacco and he was in and out of the lineup and completing like 43% of his passes and having his one or two bombs per week on game break. 15:48 So you'd look at that saying, "Well, man, maybe, maybe there's something here," you know? I would watch, uh, Michael Pittman run the crossing route, and it's kind of like the drag route, you know? 15:57 Just right over the, uh, uh, the middle of the field, and a lot of times that's open for like the five yard, six yard, seven yard gain. Never got thrown. Never got thrown. 16:05 Richardson didn't have like the, the, the comfort, the chip set, whatever, to say, "Maybe I should check down." When Michael Pittman... I would watch Michael Pittman run, run, run, run, run, run, run route. 16:14 By late in the second quarter, he's like run, run, jog, jog, jog, jog. Ugh, I don't, you know, this ball's never coming to me. Like you could see the body language of these guys. 16:23 When you see l- you're losing the receivers- Yes... like you're losing the faith of these receivers, it's like you've gotta make that move. Now, I don't know what goes on in camp day to day. 16:33 If Richardson's throwing a hero ball once in a while, and then these receivers are, are saying, "I was open on the, in the middle of the field. The ball's not coming to me. 16:40 When it came to me it was high and outside," whatever. If you're losing those guys, just like losing the coaching staff, they're gonna want Daniel Jones throwing little hitches, [laughs] you know? Right? 16:51 And, and, and, and I, I, I argue that the Anthony Richardson hype train was let out of the barn- Mm-hmm... 16:59 way too early. And, and that I, I 17:12 don't know that when you look at the numbers so far, of course he got hurt and, and banged up as a rookie. 17:33 A lot of that same sort of pocket unawareness that got him into trouble this summer are the reason why he got hurt, and some of the, taking some big hits on the run not protecting himself, but a 50.6 completion percentage, 2,391 passing yards, 11 touchdowns, 13 interceptions. 17:36 We could talk all we want about the ability to make some highlight level plays here and there on the run a- and his escape ability and those sort of things, but you talk to people inside the league, he r- he really soured the relationship with Steichen and the coaching staff with what happened last year with the injury. 17:36 And th- when you look at Daniel Jones, there's a belief among some evaluators that he could be this year's Sam Darnold, which I, I personally, I think is a stretch. No. Right. 17:36 But, but, but I, but I, I think that if you're Shane Steichen and you're that coaching staff and you see Michael Pittman and you see Jonathan Taylor and you 17:38 see a decent offensive line, and you can kind of look at Daniel Jones as the facilitator, the point guard, the guy who's gonna win from the pocket, escape when he has to, decent scheme fit, I can understand that decision, uh, m- rather easily, rather than betting your, your livelihood, your job, and your career on the, the unicorn that is Anthony Richardson as Michael Vick/Randall Cunningham/Kordell Stewart. 17:43 Right. But don't, don't forget Richardson was part of that historic class with C.J. Stroud and Bryce Young. Bryce Young. Yeah, yeah. Uh, but the... 17:52 W- Richardson, like, uh, we, we talk about this stuff, and I said, "Well, you know, you gotta appease Miles Garrett or whatever." Like last year I was watching Richardson, trying to do an evaluation. 17:52 This was when he was battling Flacco and he was in and out of the lineup and completing like 43% of his passes and having his one or two bombs per week on game break. 17:54 So you'd look at that saying, "Well, man, maybe, maybe there's something here," you know? I would watch, uh, Michael Pittman run the crossing route, and it's kind of like the drag route, you know? 17:54 Just right over the, uh, uh, the middle of the field, and a lot of times that's open for like the five yard, six yard, seven yard gain. Never got thrown. Never got thrown. 17:54 Richardson didn't have like the, the, the comfort, the chip set, whatever, to say, "Maybe I should check down." When Michael Pittman... I would watch Michael Pittman run, run, run, run, run, run, run route. 17:57 By late in the second quarter, he's like run, run, jog, jog, jog, jog. Ugh, I don't, you know, this ball's never coming to me. Like you could see the body language of these guys. 18:03 When you see l- you're losing the receivers- Yes... like you're losing the faith of these receivers, it's like you've gotta make that move. Now, I don't know what goes on in camp day to day. 18:03 If Richardson's throwing a hero ball once in a while, and then these receivers are, are saying, "I was open on the, in the middle of the field. The ball's not coming to me. 18:03 When it came to me it was high and outside," whatever. If you're losing those guys, just like losing the coaching staff, they're gonna want Daniel Jones throwing little hitches, [laughs] you know? Right? 18:03 And, and, and, and I, I, I argue that the Anthony Richardson hype train was let out of the barn- Mm-hmm... way too early. 18:03 And, and that I, I don't know that when you look at the numbers so far, of course he got hurt and, and banged up as a rookie. 18:03 A lot of that same sort of pocket unawareness that got him into trouble this summer are the reason why he got hurt, and some of the, taking some big hits on the run not protecting himself, but a 50.6 completion percentage, 2,391 passing yards, 11 touchdowns, 13 interceptions. 18:03 We could talk all we want about the ability to make some highlight level plays here and there on the run a- and his escape ability and those sort of things, but you talk to people inside the league, he r- he really soured the relationship with Steichen and the coaching staff with what happened last year with the injury. 18:03 And th- when you look at Daniel Jones, there's a belief among some evaluators that he could be this year's Sam Darnold, which I, I personally, I think is a stretch. Right. 18:03 But, but, but I, but I, I think that if you're Shane Steichen and you're that coaching staff and you see Michael Pittman and you see Jonathan Taylor and you see a decent offensive line, and you can kind of look at Daniel Jones as the facilitator, the point guard, the guy who's gonna win from the pocket, escape when he has to, decent scheme fit, I can understand that decision, uh, m- rather easily, rather than betting your, your livelihood, your job, and your career on the, the unicorn that is Anthony Richardson as Michael Vick/Randall Cunningham/Kordell Stewart. 18:05 Right. And that is one of the things, it's like does he really limit mistakes and turnovers? 18:09 And in most cases I would say no, but like compared to this guy who's just launching the ball into the sun and taking sacks, maybe yes. 18:17 Th- this is kind of, like you said, it's the least bad decisionAnd it was a decision, I think, that was, was made in March. I think it was made when Daniel Jones became available and they brought him in. 18:26 It was like, this is like a 95% chance done deal, et cetera. I don't think Steichen and Ballard are here in January under any circumstances because there's no right answer there. 18:39 The other- I think Chris Ballard excels at building teams that hover around 500. Yeah. I, I, I, I don't think that he's able to identify a quarterback. 18:49 I don't think that he's able to build around said quarterback, a roster that's capable of being complete enough to make the postseason. Mm-hmm. 18:57 And, Mike, we're talking about that in a team that plays in the AFC South, a team where your top competition is the Houston Texans, which are playing their way into the conversation based on what they've built, and the Jaguars, who can't get out of their own way. 19:11 A- and it just seems like if you can't win in that division- Mm-hmm... what, what are we even doing? And the man who was impressed by Ballard is now jamming with Jerry Garcia and George Harrison in heaven. Yeah. 19:22 Rest in peace. Th- th- that, that routine isn't going to fly, I don't think, with Carly or Say. No, and another routine that's not flying elsewhere in the NFL is the, 19:34 I, I will just call it what it is, the shenanigans from Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones in the contract negotiations with Micah Parsons, and ESPN's Adam Schefter reported on the Unsportsmanlike podcast he believes that these two are, quote, "heading for a divorce." 19:50 Mm. You and I have kind of talked about this the last couple of weeks, and o- on one school of thought we're thinking, okay, these are just, you know, bad optics, these are just contentious negotiations. 20:00 Micah Parsons and David Mugoleta will get in a room with Jerry Jones, Steven Jones will pick up the phone and, you know- [laughs]... by September 1 there'll be a deal and he'll be on the charter flight to Philadelphia. 20:11 The other hand is Michael Parsons seems done with the Dallas Cowboys, wants out, uh, seems deeply insulted by how Jones has conducted these negotiations. 20:19 And here we are, Mike, August 19th, week three of the pre-season, in full swing, and it seems like, uh, these negotiations have reached a new low between Parsons and the Cowboys. 20:30 Yeah, I was reading RJ Ochoa, who's kind of pretty tuned in with the, uh, the Cowboys, and he's like, "You know, it's not time to, like, like, uh, go for the fire extinguisher yet, but it might be time to lift the glass so you can pull it out more easily." 20:43 Yes. And he also pointed out we reach DEFCON 1 all the time in these things. It feels like we were there with Lamb- Yeah... 20:50 and, uh, Prescott this time last year, and we were, it's just that it does sound a little more rancorous even now than those did. 20:57 Right, and it, and it feels like Micah Parsons is the wrong guy for them to be playing these games with. I think that there was an inevitability to them getting Dak Prescott done, right? 21:07 I think that there was an inevitability to C.D. Lamb getting back because th- they need weapons, they need wide receivers. Yes. 21:15 Micah Parsons sounds deeply insulted by this, a- a- and, and, and the fact that David Mugoleta can't seem to get Jerry Jones on the phone to hold- Right... 21:24 these negotiations the way that they're properly supposed to be done. Right. 21:27 It, it just seems like the, th- th- this is not going the way the Cowboys typically have these things go, where it's a soap opera for three weeks, it gets people like us talking about the Dallas Cowboys, it gets fans worried, and then everybody hugs, sings Kumbaya, and, and- [laughs]... 21:43 signs a record-setting contract for the position- Right... just before the season starts. Right. This one feels different. I guess one of the problems I still have with it, though, is like, okay, on the Bengals front, 21:54 the, they said, "We're, we're listening to trade offers for Hendrickson." Like, there is this sense of, like, there is a way that this could end. 22:00 It's goofy because they seem to want Trey Hendrickson back in the trade, plus draft picks, uh, plus money, uh, but it's still like, it's like, well, we're, we're going to be doing the GM stuff to make there be, like, motion in this. 22:14 Whereas it seems like the Cowboys, it's like, "We're just going to sit here and wait for him to come back." And again, like, he's under contract so he sort of has to, but, like, are we sure? Are we sure? 22:26 And is it going to be week one, week two, week three? How long will this drag on? 22:31 'Cause i- I can't, I can't turn around and say, "Well, obviously there'll be a trade and three first-round picks," 'cause again, who executes this trade? Jerry doesn't want to do anything. Right. Right. 22:39 Who makes the, who makes the trade happen? Maybe it, it's Steven Jones, but I, but I'll put this to you, it's a question that popped in my head. Would this be the biggest NFL fumble of all time? 22:51 To, to take a player who you drafted, who you developed, who you changed positions back to his natural position at edge rusher, becomes an All-Pro, becomes a Defensive Player of the Year finalist, uh, 52 and a half sacks through his first three seasons, four seasons rather. 23:06 Wou- would this be the ultimate fumble o- on, on the Dallas Cowboys part t- to be forced to move on from Micah Parsons rather than paying for him? It's tricky. 23:17 I'd have to really go back, but it does remind me of the year Emmitt Smith held out for the first two weeks of the season, and, uh, this was after they won two Super Bowls. 23:27 They won two Super Bowls, Emmitt Smith held out, they put his backup o- out there, and you could kind of tell we were in Jerry brain at this point, 'cause I think Barry Switzer was running the team, 'cause the backup got, like, 27 carries a game. 23:40 Like they- Yeah... literally did not, like, pretend that they were running a normal offense. 23:43 Like, "We'll show you we don't need Emmitt," and they lost both games, and then next thing you know, here, there came the chartered flight with the bag of money in the back of it for Emmitt. So it depends. 23:54 It's not a fumble if you wind up getting, like, three first-round picks or something like that, or if he shows up week two. This whole era, though, this whole era is a fumble. 24:04 And so- Oh, the, the, the last two decades, three decades of- Yeah... Dallas Cowboys football has been a fumble on Jerry Jones' part. Ri- right, it's been fumble after fumble. 24:11 It's like, look at this team we put together where we have, uh, DeMarcus Ware and Jason Witten and Tony Romo and these guys, and it's like you can't win a playoff game. 24:18 Oh, look at this team now we put together, Dak Prescott and C.D. 24:21 Lamb and Micah a- a- and Diggs and some of these other ancillary guys, and you can't reach the play, or you can't win a playoff game.When, when do you stop doing sub-optimal things? I, you know. 24:33 By the way, have you watched Joe Milton? A couple snaps here and there. Couple snaps here and there, but, but it's- It's, it's interesting Very interesting. It's interesting. Very interesting. It's interesting. 24:45 It's interesting. Uh, the, the interception he threw, uh, where, uh, it was at a, before halftime, I was just looking at it, against the Ravens, where he's trying to throw to, uh, Jonathan Mingo. 24:56 And of course Mingo can't really run, but he does have a step on the, the defender. 24:59 He has a step on the defender 'cause the defender's a fourth stringer, and also is playing sort of an outside trail technique because the high safety is standing in the end zone waiting for any ball to that side of the field. 25:08 Well, Milton launches the ball over Mingo's head, and this undrafted free agent safety lands on it, and I'm like, like Milton and Mingo, these are guys the Cowboys traded for. Yeah. Yeah. Right. 25:21 And they might be forced to make another trade depending on how these Micah Parsons things ultimately play out. And before we went on, I, I texted a- an AFC front office executive. Uh-huh. 25:30 And I said, "Listen, I, I know the obvious answer here is that Micah Parsons is a fit for 31 teams." Yes. I- if, if you were making the move, w- which teams make the most sense here, actually make sense to pull this off? 25:44 He said, quote, "Miami, Kansas City, the Patriots, even though they shouldn't, the Ravens, the Bengals could swap edge rush problems, the Texans, even though they're strong on defense, strong in the front seven, the Broncos and Bears, the Bears could give back Booker, the Lions, the Packers, the Vikings, they could give back Dallas Turner in the deal, Tampa Bay." 26:03 Those are all competitors for championships, and they would surely give up at least two first-round picks and more. That's a long list. It's a lot of teams. And there's some banana pants choices on there. 26:15 I'm not gonna go question your source there. Uh, but when, when, when Hendrickson, when they said the teams that were interested in H- Hendrickson, you know what I found fascinating? 26:25 Now I th- I think I was, we were getting like a very jaundiced list of teams, but it was like the Colts and the Panthers. Uh- Right... right, right, like- But, but, but why? Why, like why? But, but why? 26:38 I, yeah, I could picture the Colts. It's like, "Well, you know, if we bring in Trey Hendrickson, we won't have to worry about a quarterback." Like, yes you will. Yes [laughs] you will. 26:45 You will, you will now be, you'll be like the Giants last year. That's what you're going to be, Daniel Jones and a good pass rush. Congratulations, Chris Ballard. Uh, go, go clean your desk out. 26:53 Um, but like it, it's weird that you don't see the Lions, for example, going all in at this point- Yeah... and just l- making the, making the phone calls. 27:04 Uh, they, they seem to have like this culture thing that they're, that they're very lo- locked into, and I kind of get that with Campbell. 27:09 Or the Commanders, who still have some cap space to burn out in the back end, and like, what the heck? We traded a bunch of draft picks this year. 27:16 Why don't we t- trade a couple draft picks last year, uh, next year, excuse me, to bring in one of these guys? 27:22 I don't know, though, if you look through that list over and over, who's really gonna part with two first-round picks, who has the cap space, and who... I, I saw the, uh, the, the Texans in there. 27:30 It's like, I think they're pretty good in the pass rush department. I don't think they need another dude. No, I, I agree. Yeah. 27:35 And, and the Packers are a fit that I just keep coming back to, even though I don't think that the Cowboys would trade Micah Parsons within the NFC. Right. But if you trade two first-round picks from Green Bay- Yeah... 27:46 you toss in Lucas Van Ness, the former first-round pick who could probably benefit from a change of scenery, who you might just be done with anyway, and Romeo Doubs, you have $31.2 million in cap space this year. 27:57 Now I get it. You, you, if, if your philosophy is building through the draft and a young and ascending team around Jordan Love- Yeah... 28:04 that's gonna ascend at the same time, and eventually some, some year off into the future everyone is going to reach their potential all at once, and you're going to- Right... 28:13 win the Super Bowl and compete for multiple Super Bowls during everybody's prime, that's why you wouldn't make the move. [laughs] You've already built a really young core around that quarterback. 28:23 Y- you've already have a lot of homegrown talent that obviously seems to be missing a dominant pass rush. You have a potential logjam at wide receiver. 28:33 I know we've talked about the Packers' fit with Micah Parsons before on this show, Mike- Yeah... 28:37 but it just seems like of the teams out there, and certainly the ones listed outside of Detroit, the Packers are the closest to winning it all. Mm-hmm. 28:45 They have the quarterback problem firmly solved well into the future, and they have the cap space. They don't have the cap space moving forward, though. That's one of the things I'm looking at. 28:55 They're only showing two million in cap space for next year because they've got a lot of loaded contracts, like McKinney's contract, Love's contract, they could obviously mess with that, Rashan Gary, et cetera. 29:05 I'm not saying that's an impediment that they can't overcome, but it's one of the little points of confusion along the way. 29:11 And we are kind of hit- hitting the sort of yin-yang here of the trade that gets you fired versus the sort of can-kicking type of thing and say, "Well, if we keep kind of playing this, this out and saying, 'Well, we're developing the talent. 29:25 We're, we're, we're making measured free agent moves,'" you're less likely to wind up making the move that puts a big bullseye on you to get fired, and I think that's what you get with a lot of these teams. 29:35 Plus, again, you pick up the phone and you call the Cowboys. Does it just ring? They might, because they don't seem all that interested in actually moving on, and they know that they have a year left on the contract. 29:48 They know that they can slap the franchise tag on him two years in a row. They, they know that for all intents and purposes they control Micah Parsons through the next three seasons. 29:57 And eventually, no matter how hurt the feelings are- Yeah... Micah Parsons is gonna have to come in and get paid or, or, or face significant fines, uh, moving forward from here. Right. That's it. 30:08 That, that there is like no good escape latch for him except to try to stick to his guns as best as possible and hold this season hostage. 30:16 But when you're the Cowboys and you're like, "Oh, go ahead, hold the season hostage," we seem to not care about that anymore. 30:22 We don't seem to care about team culture or the idea that maybe this is the window or that the window is closing, or that Brian Schottenheimer needs to get his regime off to a good start, or that we need to have vibes be somewhat okay here because that's one of the things that works in the background. 30:36 They stopped caring about that, so then Parsons is, is literally just like, "Well, I guess I better show up."And like, who knows, maybe the little soft tissue injury that gets me that has them say, "Well, we're just not going to franchise you next year." 30:48 But like, w- I don't even know what that looks like. Right. Like, you would have to- Right... 30:52 like, like so obviously pull a ouch my knee type of thing that I th- like all of us would be like, "No, no, we know what you're doing. We know what you're doing, buddy." Yes. 31:01 And that's not the kind of guy Play- Parsons is, let's be, let's be frank. No, not at all. I, I mean, you know, if, if, if I'm twisting your arm here, which you know I'm going to do- Yeah... 31:10 i- i- is he a Cowboy week one? Is he a Cowboy in February? He's a Cowboy in February. He might not be a Cowboy in week one. You have a Thursday night opener 31:20 against the Eagles in the season opener, where you might be in a situation where they announce the contract like that day, and he shows up i- in his uniform, and Brian Schottenheimer's like, "No, I'm not putting him on the field. 31:32 He hasn't even stretched. Come on. Come on, what's wrong with you?" Like, like, that's, that's what I think we're gonna be looking at. I- if you're asking me the most likely outcome- Yeah... 31:40 I, I think that the contract is signed by Micah Parsons, uh, the Monday after- Okay... the debut. I, I think we're looking at a, a, a Chris Jones-like, uh, situation- Yes... 31:52 where it's a Thursday night opener, and Roger Goodell is, you know, hobnobbing Jerry Jones in the box, and all of a sudden you see Micah Parsons sitting there in the box- Uh-huh... 32:03 with Jerry Jones, and by Monday you have the deal announced that he's making $5 mill- $5 more than TJ Watt made on his deal, and he's happily a Cowboy for week two. 32:13 And the only thing the, the Cowboys lost was one divisional game against the opponent they have to beat that Micah could have made a difference on. That's all they lose in this, 32:24 is another chance to start things off properly. Yes. 32:28 And speaking of starting things off properly, uh, one of my favorite traditions each summer over the past five years since I've started covering the league nationally, Mike, is I conduct this big survey- Yes... 32:37 of NFL executives, coaches, scouts, and players on how they think the upcoming season is going to play out, whether it's the MVP candidate, uh, that not enough people are talking about, the team that is going to surprise and defy expectations to the upside, and their Super Bowl match up that they think, uh, will, will take place, uh, come February. 32:57 Dropped it on, on Monday. Yeah. Really proud of it every year. And, and there were even, uh, to my surprise, there were some pretty shocking answers buried within this thing. Right. I, I read it and it was interesting. 33:08 Like, the, the surprise MVP candidates, I guess once you tell people you want a surprise MVP candidate, and they're like, "Okay, well it can- can't be Josh Allen, J- Patrick Mahomes," and all, it does force them to think differently. 33:20 I did, I, I did see one vote for Anthony Richardson that that one didn't age well. But- No... um, I guess the number one would be, like most people's, quote unquote, s- s- favorite second tier candidate, M- Jordan Love. 33:34 I- i- uh, Jordan Love, and then right behind him Baker Mayfield. Right. 33:37 Um, Jordan Love, according to, uh, one scout who I surveyed, uh, "Packers have a ton of weapons, and Jordan Love will have to play at an MVP level for them to be contenders." 33:47 And I, I can buy that, that, that if the Packers win that division, they finally overtake the Detroit Lions, and Love passes for like 4,000 yards with 32 touchdowns and eight picks- Mm-hmm... 34:01 I could see Jordan Love climbing into the conversation. I just don't know that the Packers are built to do those things. And you're starting to see the injuries mount in Green Bay. 34:11 I think there are still some serious questions along the front seven of that defense. 34:15 I think the cornerback room is nightmare fuel in Green Bay, but if Jordan Love has the kind of year that we just outlined, I could see him getting some votes. All the things you said are true. 34:27 Uh, the flip side of it is, there's th- there's increasingly like a vibes element, uh, to, to MVP. 34:34 Uh, for example, the, the, spoiler alert, when people were talking about their surprise team, a couple put the 49ers, which- Yeah... I like. 34:42 Okay, so that, and that's great, I, I agree, but no one put Brock Purdy for MVP, because if Brock Purdy threw 74 touchdown passes, people would be like, "Man, it's amazing what Kyle Shanahan has done, and the resurgence of Christian McCaffrey, and what George Kittle brings to the table," and, uh, e- et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 34:59 He did it without Deebo. Yeah. Right, like, you know, Deebo, but whatever, but Jauan Jennings really turned into this great player, and how about Ricky Pearsall? 35:06 A- and Brock Purdy'll just be like, "Oh, I guess I, I, I, I guess I'm a piece of poop," or whatever. Goff's in that situation too. Yes. Jared Goff- Yes... 35:15 like, yeah, "I completed 70,000% of my passes, but you know, I will never get one MVP award." 35:19 Love will get those votes, 'cause Love has the kind of talent where you look at it and say, "Okay, this is the guy who made the difference." 35:26 Baker, as the other one, is somebody who I thought if he goes out there they could win 14 games, 35:32 and everybody, everybody would be like, "Well, you know, Hall of Famer Mike Evans and Chris Godwin returning, and, and boy Bowles really has it going, and that schedule is so easy that they face." 35:42 So I can't actually picture Baker getting the choices. Who, who else was on the list, by the way? Yeah, uh, some real s- well, Joe Burrow got one vote, which I'm not so sure- Yeah... that Jerbu- Joe Burrow's a surprise. 35:52 I guess you're banking on the defense being better and him throwing for 5,000 yards with like two interceptions actually mattering, uh- Right... this time around. Uh, Miles Garrett was just... 36:02 I, I got that text message back and I was just floored that Miles Garrett would get consideration because i- i- in my opinion, Mike, 36:09 if Miles Garrett is getting MVP consideration, then they must be winning games, you know, six to nothing every single week. Yep. 36:17 A- and he must be setting the single season sack record on top of it, and they must have swept Lamar Jackson and, and the Ravens, right? That's the only way. That's the only way, yeah. 36:25 So we'll move to surprise team here. Uh, Houston Texans leading the way with three votes. You mentioned the 49ers, and a lot of the love there comes from, uh, the easy schedule coming back. Mm-hmm. 36:37 Um, the, the Buccaneers check in at number three. The Denver Broncos, y- you know how high I, I am on Denver, and we've gone back and forth on that. 36:45 Chicago Bears, I, I think that's a great place to stop and take the temperature because I was impressed by Caleb and Ben Johnson. I read walkthrough. You came away cynically optimistic, I think I'll- [laughs]... 36:57 uh, I'll sum it up as?Yeah, cynically optimistic. Skept- I, I remain skeptical at all times. Skepticism is healthy. Skepticism isn't nay-saying, isn't saying that everything is wrong and false. 37:08 It's just saying those seven passes were impressive. All seven of them [laughs] were impressive. Right. Right, right, right. 37:16 Uh, did that, that, that was a call that came in, by the way, that vote came in before the Sunday night game, right? Because you- It did, yes... you wrote for Monday, so they had to come in before that. Okay. 37:24 Yeah, that came in maybe about two weeks ago. Yeah, this has been- Okay... an ongoing project, trying to, like- Yeah, trying to get-... get in touch with people, getting people to get back, and- Right... 37:31 uh, you know, it's training camp and things are going on. Uh, the, the Raiders, from an NFC personnel executive, quote, "The Raiders have all the pieces you need to contend. 37:40 They have a solid head coach, veteran quarterback, running back with the traits to be elite, and a dominant edge rusher," unquote. Yeah. Sure. 37:48 Th- they do, but, but I, but I, I'm not as high on Geno Smith as, as this executive is. Right. 37:53 And they, they still play in a division with Patrick Mahomes and Justin Herbert, who you and I disagree with a little bit, and the, the, the surging- Yeah... Denver Broncos defense. Right, right. 38:02 There's not a lot of opportunity there, and you've got a lot of, yeah, rookie running back in Geno, yeah. 38:09 Yeah, I th- I think there are other ingredients, and I don't think [laughs] that the Raiders necessarily have all the ingredients you need to compete. I don't know about the offensive line. 38:17 Secondary is still up in the air, in my opinion there. Wide receiver, who's wide receiver one again? Yeah, great, great, great point. Great question. Yeah, that's, it's Brock Bowers, the tight end. 38:28 Like, I was like, "Oh, yeah, okay. That's true. Okay. Right. Got it." Uh, Super Bowl. Th- th- this is always fun because- Yeah... you just never know what people are gonna say. 38:36 Uh, the most popular answer, uh, five votes out of the 14 panelists, Ravens and Eagles. An NFL defensive player told me, quote, "The Eagles have the tools to repeat, especially if the defense gels quickly. 38:50 The Ravens also loaded up this off-season. I think they are built to make a run," unquote. So with five votes, the Ravens and Eagles atop this list. Wow. 38:59 You know, the thing is, and I mean, I would probably do something like that. It'd be that or, you know, like Lions-Bills or something like that. 39:07 It's hard to come up with one that doesn't involve some combination of the same teams. Teams. It's hard to- Yeah. Anyway, I saw Packers. You had a couple people put Packers in there. 39:17 Yes, uh, Packers-Ravens was mentioned. Uh, an all DMV Super Bowl, Super Bowl of Ravens and Commanders, I found that one interesting. Bills get some love. The Bills and Bucs was a big surprise. 39:31 That's a- Uh, the Bills and Eagles, which I think would be just a fascinating and compelling match up between those two quarterbacks and two really good defenses and savvy defensive coaches. 39:41 Uh, Chiefs and Rams, um, th- that was, that was an interesting one, especially given everything going on with Matthew Stafford at this moment. 39:49 Um, and, and- Did that, did that one, did that one come in before we heard about Stafford maybe or maybe not having a shoulder? Yeah, that, that was a little bit before the, the shoulder uncertainty came into play. 39:59 Before the, before the Van, before we already knew about the Van. And, uh, th- this one, take it for what you will, uh, Bills and Giants. Giants? Yes. 40:11 I, I don't wanna, like, like, necessarily out your sources- No, I, I-... but I think Lawrence is one of the candidates for... No, it was Trevor Lawrence. I, I've, like, yeah. 40:20 No, it was, it was, it, it was, uh, th- I believe that both Trevor and, uh, Dexter were on this list, but, but Dexter Lawrence was one of the surprise MVP candidates, which, uh, and you can probably tell the building from, from which some of these, at least one of these emanated from. 40:36 Right, right, and right. That's, wow. 40:39 Um, yeah, I'll put the, I'll take the, I'll take the Giants with a grain of salt, but credit because y- you and I do the same thing, 'cause we're gonna start getting asked on, on, on radio shows, TV shows, "What's your Super Bowl prediction?" 40:50 And I always just yawn, because I'm gonna say either the Bills or the Ravens against either the Eagles or the Lions. And I want to come up with something wacky and new, 41:03 but I mean, I, you're, you're high enough on the Packers, but you couldn't go there straight-faced and be like, "Packers-Broncos, that's it." Do, could you? No. [laughs] No. No, no, no. 41:13 Especially not what I saw in Baltimore the day that I was at, at training camp. I would not be... I mean, I, I, I'm very high on Denver. I think Denver makes a run. 41:20 I think Denver ra- m- you know, ruins some people's days in a lot of ways that the Commanders did last year. I just don't know if anybody's getting by Baltimore this year. 41:30 But, but we're, we're g- I'm gonna make you make that prediction. This is the belated anniversary gift to you with sarcasm, you know, laden throughout it. 41:37 Uh, I'm gonna make you make that pred- prediction in a couple weeks. It's either gonna be next week or the following when we make our, our bold predictions, our reasonable predictions, uh, for this season. 41:47 So, uh- Yeah... lock me in with all of the radio hits that you do where you have to come up with something for that. 41:52 I'm gonna, I'm actually going to craft, I'm actually gonna put on an index card next to my, uh, computer here my wacky predi- prediction so I'm the same and consistent on it all the way through, and it'll be something I can at least, uh, uh, like, justify to myself. 42:05 By the way, I took, I think, I ha- I'd have to look it up, me and Jared Bailey, we took the Raiders, I think, plus eight and a half. Uh, no, we took them plus nine and a half, so 10 wins, but at plus 420. Okay. 42:20 And- Okay... 42:21 and the, the thing is that I'm not that high on the Raiders, but, uh, it was, like, right, so 10 and 7, where it's like, okay, they have this big season and they wind up, like, the last wild card or just on their way out. 42:32 And the reason why we ended up taking it at the end is they face the Chiefs week 18. Oh, there you go. And- There you go. So they, they, they- That-... could be playing the, the practice squad's practice squad. 42:45 Gardner Minshew's backup, O- O- Odell Encune or whatever the, the third string quarterback is, and they could be fighting for, like, the wild card and just go, like, "Rah" Ah... and, like, get that extra win. 42:56 And I want to be there on four to one.On four to one odds on, like, a sicko, like a 1:00 start on January 8th or whatever it is, like, like a lunatic rooting for this, so. Well, you know what we need to do. Yes. 43:10 We need to get you into the building. If, if it comes down to it, if, if it comes down to week 18- Take me to Vegas... 43:16 and you need this to hit the over- Is it, I, I- I think you need to be in the press box, in the building. You need to make it the focal point of walkthrough. 43:26 W- we need to see this, this, this bet come to fruition or not with, with Tanya in the house. It's in Vegas, so that's an easy flight, affordable flight. Yes. 43:36 I don't think that's a hard press box to get into that time of year. 43:40 It's not gonna be, I don't think it'll be swarmed with national media coming in, 'cause all the people who follow the Chiefs are like, "Oh, the playoffs are coming. 43:46 I'm gonna go out there for the, the first playoff game and we're gonna skip this." Even if I can't get the press credential, I could get to Vegas. And tickets will probably be affordable in that building. 43:57 In the building as a, as a... Yeah, right, like stub hub. Yeah. And you can document it for the column. And I write the whole thing off. Yes. Yes. We'll see if, if it's happening, it's happening. 44:11 I'll explain it to my wife. She will be very understanding. Take a wife. Take her to Vegas. It's a weekend in Vegas. If I get one that's over 20, why not take him? Yeah. Take him. Bonding. There you go. We're bonding. 44:21 See, well, I, I, this, the Between the Hash Marks podcast, where ideas come alive. Mike, what's coming up on the Too Deep Zone, uh, the next couple of days here? I have no idea, man. 44:30 I am so far be- okay, actually that's not true. Uh, the, uh, I'm working on a thing on the backup quarterback situations around the NFL, and that's probably not running tomorrow, that's running Thursday. 44:41 Um, also, the Signature Moment series, I've been taking a short break from it, but next week we'll be doing the Signature Moments in the history of the New Orleans Saints. 44:51 And if you think a little bit, you might remember why I'm going to be waiting until August 29th to drop the Signature Moments in the, uh, history of the New Orleans Saints. So centering around, uh- Yes... 45:03 a- another major anniversary. Yes. Yes. Uh, you know, something a little more serious and tragic than the start of our podcast, tragic though it may have been. What do you got coming up? 45:14 Yeah, well, the mail bag on Friday where people could pose their questions to me on social media. I'll pose those questions to league insiders, uh, get their thoughts. 45:21 The, the mail bag make its triumphant return after a few weeks of a hiatus due to the training camp tour and all the work that went into that. 45:28 And we're gonna pick up and continue our Five Burning Questions series, uh, with the NFC South. We've checked off the NFC East and the NFC North. 45:36 Uh, gonna try to cram in all of the divisions before, uh, week one gets underway. Uh, emphasis on the word try there. Right. 45:45 Uh, but with some fun content coming up, and if you enjoy the podcast, please go ahead and subscribe in the Apple Podcast Store, Spotify, SoundCloud. Check us out on my YouTube channel @MattLombardo975. 45:56 Make sure you follow Mike on BlueSky @MikeTanya. Subscribe to the Too Deep Zone. Don't miss a walkthrough. Don't miss a Signature Moment. 46:04 Don't miss any of the deep dives that have come to become the hallmark of the Too Deep Zone. You can subscribe to Between the Hash Marks on Substack as well. Follow me on Threads @MattLombardoNFL and BlueSky. 46:14 Well, we're both verified again on BlueSky, and I- @MattLombardo over there. Yeah, we are real again. We're whole. We are verified. We have blue check marks. We matter again. 46:25 So that's why I talk about the attention economy, the five star reviews, the non-toxic toxicity or the toxic non-toxicity, whatever it is, man, we crave this sort of thing, or at least I do. 46:36 I, I probably shouldn't speak for you. Your, your- Yourself works out well. That's, that's why we're, that's why we do what we do, right? That's why we have this podcast. That's why [laughs] Right. 46:44 Your self-esteem's not, like, completely, uh, like, wrapped up in this, right? Right? You're okay. You're doing fine. Jesus. This is a- He's Mike Tanier. I'm Matt Lombardo. Have a great week. 46:55 We'll talk to you next week here on the Between the Hash Marks podcast
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