Transcript 0:00 All right, all right. Welcome on in to another action-packed and live edition of the Between the Hash Marks podcast. 0:05 As always, I'm Matt Lombardo, joined by my friend, colleague, mentor, and the purveyor of the Two Deep Zone, Mike Tanier is here. Michael, how are you today? I'm doing great. 0:13 Is it really going to be action-packed, though? As action-packed as we can muster- [laughs]... on a day like today, and with an NFL Draft class that lacks a lot of punch. 0:23 Yes, we will try to bring the action to, to the draft class that seems to lack it. 0:28 Yeah, this is the time of year, it's a different kind of action this time of year, because, uh, those of us who are, you know, dads, those of us who are, you know, in charge of the household, this is a very, uh, unique time of year. 0:39 I wanted to quiz you in terms of, like, your dad readiness for spring. I'm excited. We'll get into that. We'll get into the- Yeah... 0:46 draft, we'll get into some of the news of the day, but I have breaking news for you, my friend. Really? We received a five-star review for the- Ooh... Between the Hash Marks podcast on Apple Podcasts. 0:56 This one comes in from The Shamil Curtain, "The feel-good hit of the off-season and the regular season and the post-season too," five-star review, "Engage," unquote. That's awesome. 1:08 And "Engage," at the end, that's a Trek reference. Yes. Yes. So there's a little bit of Trek mixed in with the NFL, and I love a little Trek in with my NFL. Thank you very much. 1:18 Uh, I also wanna point out, somebody commented with a long comment about Dunkey's cheesesteaks. Oh, really? Yes. Uh, it, it went by so quickly, all through... It only made me hungry. 1:29 So if somebody had, like, a, a, a, a very pertinent Dunkey's cheesesteak observation, I didn't, uh, I didn't really, uh, process it. I can't see it on my screen right now, but I am, like, hankering for a cheesesteak. 1:40 Are you familiar, familiar with, uh... [laughs] Are you familiar with Dunkey's? 1:44 I, I, I've never, I have never been to Dunkey's, uh, but I am familiar with the concept, that it's on a poppy seed hamburger roll type of situation, rather than- Yeah... the traditional cheesesteak route, correct? 1:56 It is round. It's on a round roll. It's on, yes, like a, a poppy seed. So right off the bat it's a little disorientating to most cheesesteak fans. It's sort of like the South Jersey version of the cheesesteak. 2:05 Excellent cheesesteak. Someone also, uh, uh, just complimented me, saying, uh, that, 'cause I referred to a running back as slower than frozen ketchup, and thank you very much for that. 2:16 And also somebody pointed out the goatee is back. It is back, and it is glorious. Uh, and, and thank you very much for that. But thank you most of all for the five-star review. Absolutely. 2:25 A- and kudos, five-star, uh, goatee back and better than ever. 2:29 Uh, I'm going to need to put you in charge of the comments today, because for whatever reason, uh, we, we always seem to have some sort of technical difficulties around here, but today's technical difficulty du jour is the comments are not showing up on the bottom of my screen. 2:43 So if anything- Okay... comes across, you're gonna have to be on the lookout for that. But as always, a little bit of housekeeping. 2:48 If you enjoy the, the bearded one, Mike Tanier, if you enjoy the deep dives, the analytics, the analysis, the storytelling and the dad jokes, subscribe to the Two Deep Zone on Substack. 2:59 If you enjoy my blend of insider reporting and features and storytelling, subscribe to Between the Hash Marks on Substack, and always, uh, subscribe to the Apple Podcast store, the Between the Hash Marks podcast on Apple. 3:11 Leave those five-star ratings and reviews. They do help grow the show. 3:14 And whether you're watching this on Substack later on or at my YouTube channel, @mattlombardo975, there's a direct link in the description for how to subscribe on Apple Podcasts. Yeah. 3:24 Uh, but I, I, you said you were gonna quiz me a little bit on my springtime dad duties. Yeah, I have to test you on your readiness. Now we're not gonna do draft readiness. 3:32 We're gonna talk about that in a little bit, and it's impossible to be ready for this draft, 'cause it's like, yeah, getting ready for nothing. Um, but let me ask you this. Have you tested the air conditioner yet? 3:44 I have not. Uh, that, that has to be high on the priority list, and, uh, I've kind of let that slip as far as, like, getting it inspected. Mm-hmm. Uh, I, I, I live next door to an HVAC guy. He runs a- Oh... 3:55 up an HVAC company. So I, I, I could just knock on the door and say, "Hey, send one of your guys over." It's been a couple years since I've had it inspected. 4:02 I should probably get on that and have him send some of his people over to, to give it a look-see. Have you? I, I, I have not. I got the quarter zip on right now. You've got a jacket on. It is not the weather for that. 4:11 But last week we had a couple of 80s, and I risked a, a lightning bolt from heaven from my father by testing the, uh, air conditioning early on. 4:21 I do not have an HVAC next, guy next to me, a- and we are gonna have it, have somebody come out to, to service it to make sure that it's working in peak order. 4:28 I like the idea of you just knocking on the guy next door's door and say, "Hey, repair my air conditioning for me." I'm sure that's- [laughs] 4:35 That's how he loves to, to, to handle his customer service, you know, a knock on the door from, from a neighbor. Send the guy over. I, well, you know, I could bring him a beer. I'll bring him a Troegs. 4:44 I mean, we're buddies. His, his kids are friends with my kids. Okay. Uh, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll bring him a, a Troeginator. Maybe he'll toss me an IPA. 4:52 You know, maybe I'll throw two beers in for the, the HVAC servicer. Yes, 'cause you want him a little bit lit while he's working on your HVAC unit. Perfect. Um, okay, so that one's fallen by the wayside. 5:02 Has the lawn been mowed yet? It has not been mowed, but I am holding out until the rest of the neighborhood makes their first cut. 5:10 And, and, and one person, uh, one person across the way, who in peak season probably mows his lawn, like, three or four times per week, he's one of those guys, he already cut his. 5:21 He cut his once, like, a week and a half ago. But a few of us are still holding out. We're still stragglers. Uh, it hasn't looked like it quite needed it just yet. Have you, have you cut yours? 5:31 We, we got a few clumps, but I think it's similar. The guy next door, and I'm looking to see if he's over there, he's not there, he's a early mower. 5:39 He's the peer pressure guy of the neighborhood, and he was out there, like, last week. Again, first warm day, there's like a tuft of grass about this big, and he's out there, and then that starts the clock. 5:48 And also, I was having my brother over for Easter, and my brother cannot see an unmown lawn. I can't, I can't countenance that.So the long got mode. Have you broken out, have you broken out the shorts yet? Yes. 5:59 Couple of times. Okay. Not today. Uh, but I al- I also used to be a guy who kinda made fun of guys who wore the shorts and the, the, the hoodie- Yeah... or the jacket. Uh. 6:08 Because if people make up your mind, I'm usually like a pants and a T-shirt dude. Right. But I, I, I, I gave in. I, I tried the shorts with the hoodie. 6:16 It's a decent feel, 'cause you don't get as cold up top, and your legs are kinda warm-ish anyway. So yes, I've worn shorts a couple of times. How about you? I, I have worn shorts once or twice. 6:25 It's not pretty, but I, I get the job done. Do you do the whole thing though where you get all the shorts out, and like, like rearrange your, your shelves and your drawers? Do you do it that way, and have you done that? 6:34 They go from the shelves in the walk-in to the drawer in the dresser. Yeah. The, the, the, the change has been made. Yeah. 6:40 And, uh, my son Luca, his, his, his daycare teacher said, "Wow, Matt, you, you look taller in your shorts." So maybe I should wear shorts more often. There you go. Make you look taller. 6:50 Impressing the, the, the daycare lea- I, I, I see it. Not gonna s- not gonna comment. Not gonna make it weird. Not gonna make it weird. No, I'm not, I'm not gonna make it weird. 6:59 How, h- how about, uh, do you do, do you get the car, get the oil changed, get the tire pressure checked in the car? You done that yet? Uh, oil change is not due for another month, but my wife- Oh... 7:09 just had the whole oil change, inspection, brake pads, uh, that whole costly experience just went down in our house, uh- [laughs] Okay... last, last Thursday afternoon. Okay. 7:21 So I think for like the dad spring things, you're batting 500. Yeah. And, and batting- I'd be in the Hall of Fame. If I were a baseball player, I'd be in the dad Hall of Fame by now. Yeah. 7:30 The NBA Hall of Fame, if you're a 50%, you know, shooter, uh, for most of your career, you're probably going to the NBA Hall of Fame too, so, so you're going to make it. So congratulations, great work. 7:40 These are the signs of spring. Usually the signs of spring are we have like a great, uh, podcast full of draft information. I think in two weeks we'll do a more draft-heavy one. Yeah. 7:49 But at least we got, at least we got a little bit of news right now, right? W- we do, and, uh, the New York Giants, uh- Yes... 7:55 presented some of the biggest news of the week yesterday when Adam Schefter reported that Dexter Lawrence requested a trade. 8:01 And this is one of these really fascinating situations, because you're looking at one of the premier players at his position- Mm-hmm... 8:07 who reportedly, according to Schefter, has spent the last two off-seasons trying to rework his current deal. Mm-hmm. 8:14 He still has two years remaining on his contract, but requested a trade because those talks have stalled. 8:18 And I've a, a story coming out tomorrow morning at Between the Hash Marks, you can check that out on Substack, kind of breaking down what this could mean, where it could go, how people inside the league are feeling. 8:30 Uh- But like, I'll just start from the 30,000-foot view, I'll put it to you, it's gonna be kinda tricky to find the match of the team that's going to have the draft capital to make this a worthwhile trade for the Giants to move him. 8:44 Right. 8:44 And, as a former NFL GM told me this morning, have the cap space to pay Dexter Lawrence the kind of raise that he's looking for the moment he walks in the door in April, after all these big free agent signings have already gone down. 8:59 So this is gonna be really fascinating to see what the end game winds up being here. Yeah, and that's a great point, 'cause it's like this is the team, we set our budget time of year. 9:09 Like, we set our budget in February, and we spent the money we wanted to spend for, in March, and then we have our internal players we budgeted for, and we haven't budgeted for you. 9:19 This is the wrong time of year to be asking for this, which seems to suggest that he doesn't, Lawrence doesn't really expect a trade so much as he wants to make a very public and clear announcement that he expects the Giants to come forth and pay him. 9:35 And that's exactly where I was gonna go. And I think that's an astute point by you. 9:38 The, you know, you look at this, it might not necessarily be about getting traded, but getting the Giants to pony up, because I think that Dexter Lawrence and his representatives are smart enough to look at that roster and see that it's pretty top-heavy in terms of talent. 9:52 You know, you have your- Yeah... Malik Nabers, Abdul Carter, Brian Burns, Jackson Dart is emerging. Th- there's some talent at the top. Yeah. Pretty thin below that first layer. Right. 10:02 Dexter Lawrence is in that top u- upper echelon. Maybe the, like, upper of the upper echelon. Right. 10:07 He, they've, they realize their value, and they realize that by the Giants trading Dexter Lawrence, even for a first-round pick or multiple first-round picks if they can fetch him, you're making your team worse in the immediate future- Right... 10:20 by moving on from him. Right. So we kind of, we'll learn a couple things from this. One is we're gonna learn what Joe Harbaugh really thinks of his current roster. Yeah. 10:29 'Cause if they are eager to a trade, then he still thinks this is a rebuilding team, uh, the playoffs this year are not necessarily this end goal whatsoever, we're going for the future. 10:38 If they're, uh, if they prioritize keeping him, it's like, well, we're on a shorter window, and that makes sense. 10:43 I think it's also going to test how, like, the machinery of running the organization in East Rutherford is going right now, with Harbaugh in charge, Shein, uh, uh, on his hamster wheel somewhere in a corner, but probably somebody who still has to take the point for this. 11:00 Uh, Mara doing his, you know, Queen of England routine up there, where he's gonna drop hints as to what he wants. 11:06 And how will this manifest, either as a trade or as a contract extension, or will they grind gears against each other, where Harbaugh says, "I wanna get this done," and Shein said, "Well, we didn't wanna get it done last year, we don't wanna get it done this year," and it becomes a friction situation that runs into July, runs into August. 11:23 This is un- uncharted territory for a team, where it was like, well, this was Shein's call, and before that it was Gettleman's call, and it was Gettleman's call, Lawrence would probably have $4 billion right now. 11:33 Um, [laughs] and you wouldn't have anything else on the roster except him and Andrew Thomas.Yeah, it, it's a stress test. There's no doubt about it. Yeah. There, there's a stress test. 11:40 And I, and I don't wanna give away every team that I think is a fit, but- Okay... there is, there is one team that I think checks all of the boxes, right? They- Mm-hmm... they run a three-four. They have a ton- Yeah... 11:51 of cap space. Mm-hmm. They have a need that was exposed on the biggest stage in sports. The New England Patriots, I think- Right... 11:58 make a ton of sense here because you're picking 31st in the NFL draft, so it's a first-round pick, but it's a back end of the first round, so you're not giving up a premium asset. They have- Right... 12:09 39 and a half million dollars in cap space this off-season, and you just got off of a Super Bowl where you allowed 135 yards to Kenneth Walker, averaging five- Yeah... 12:18 yards per carry, and you play in a division that houses James Cook, who you face twice a year, houses De'Von Achane, who you play twice a year, houses Josh Allen, who you play twice a year. And if- Mm-hmm... 12:30 you're looking at yourself as the New England Patriots, a team that is, uh, the, the hunted rather than the hunter in a division- Yeah... 12:37 with that much talent, trading for Dexter Lawrence is the kind of counterpunch that keeps you there and doesn't allow the Bills, now with D.J. Moore and some nice off-season additions, to overtake you. 12:48 Yeah, the Patriots are gonna be really... Once they get both Dexter Lawrence and A.J. Brown, look, look out, America. 12:55 I, I, I say that because, uh, obviously you're not the only one who's, like, y- the Patriots come into play when we talk about A.J. Brown, and there's that fabled connection, and now with Dexter Lawrence. 13:05 I'm looking at the Patriots as a team that doesn't seem like it wants to do the cool hot thing. You know? They would've done it by now. They would've traded- They would-... for A.J. 13:13 Brown by now or at least reached a deal with the Eagles that, "Sh, sh, sh, we can't announce it till July, till June 2nd- Right... but, hey, we're gonna pull this off." 13:21 Right, or they would've been in the Max Crosby sweepstakes or, or doing this. I'm not saying they won't, but they strike me as this team that's saying, "Oh, we know that we, uh, y- we know what we did last year. 13:30 We know how much cap space we have, but we're gonna build organically." That's what I think is happening, but you're right. 13:35 If they don't go in that direction, yeah, they're a team that could go out there, pursue Lawrence. He's still, uh, he's still in his prime, um, and can be that difference-maker. 13:44 I think he should be that m- difference-maker for the Giants 'cause the Giants' whole thing is the front four is the strength, or however you wanna put it, the defensive front is the strength, and we're working our way out from there. 13:54 Uh, I'm seeing for next year 64 million in cap space for next year. 13:59 Now, that's not actually a ton, and I'm stunned because I, like, I look at the Giants and it's like, okay, the money ain't going to Darn- it ain't going to neighbors, it ain't go- where is this money going to? 14:09 Well, some of it's going to Lawrence, so of course he's al- they're already in the hook for 30, so if that goes up to 40, that's only $10 million in new cap space. Andrew Thomas, fair enough. 14:20 Brian Burns, two years down the road, he has a huge cap number. Darius Slayton has [chuckles] a big cap number. 14:27 So I, I look at the Giants to say they should do this, but then I go into that, that, that Giants head space where it's like, oh my God, how are they leveraged for 2027 when they still aren't that good a team and most of their best a- assets are on their rookie contracts? 14:42 And Dexter Lawrence might be your best asset on the entire roster. Let's be real- Right... about this. I mean, you look at a guy who was double-teamed 70.6% of the snaps last year. Ooh. Uh-huh. 14:51 Had a pass rush win rate that was among the highest in the NFL. He's consistently graded out over the last three years as a top 10 interior defensive lineman according to Pro Football Focus. Right. 15:02 He stops the run at an elite level. He's an interior pass rusher in, in a league where that matters tremendously, especially when you have the benefit of Abdul Carter and Brian Burns- Yes... 15:12 racing to the quarterback off the edges. It makes no sense to trade him. It makes no sense not to commit to Dexter Lawrence as a franchise centerpiece player because he might be the best player on your roster. 15:23 He's also the best player who's going to be available this time of year. You can't tell me that the Patriots are going to get a more impactful player at 31. You can't tell me- Right... 15:34 that a team like the Jets are going to be able to get a more impactful player, even at 16, than- Right... Dexter Lawrence. 15:40 Dexter Lawrence is going to be the best player available between now and next free agency, and some- Yeah... 15:46 team is gonna be desperate enough to offer a first- or a second-round pick or two first-round picks, whatever the package may be. 15:52 But if you're the Giants, you're, y- you better think long and hard about giving up that kind of asset if you think that you're close. If you think you're close- Right... 15:59 you don't trade Dexter Lawrence for multiple picks. A- and even if you're not, 'cause I don't think you can get that impactful a player at five. No. Right, right. So, so what are you doing? So I look at this and say, 16:11 Giants should get out there. 16:12 They should make an extension, put, make it worth his while, and then when they have cap tr- trouble down the line, finally part ways with your Darius Slayton types [chuckles] and, uh, save money from that 'cause you should be able to build replacements for them through any particular draft class. 16:25 And that's what makes this an interesting stress test because we- we're gonna discover what Harbaugh thinks, we're gonna discover how that looks, where, where his power comes from, and if the Giants can make this work in a way that's logical. 16:37 Because what I see when I look at their cap ledger is years and years of illogical decisions that keep funneling forward and causing more headaches for themselves. 16:45 For sure, and you just look at the rest of the NFC East, and you head down the Jersey Turnpike to Philadelphia in our neck of the woods, th- th- this, uh, discourse around Jalen Hurts has been really fascinating- Uh-huh... 16:56 this off-season and, and pretty revelatory if we're being real about this. It, it is. Now, now the most recent thing is, you know, he's not the most coachable guy, according to inside sources. 17:09 Nothing weird and, like, uh, like, uh, interpret that how you will. Nothing passive-aggressive about that, is there? W- w- [laughs] I mean, really. Not at all. 17:21 I mean- The, the la- the last quarterback we, we, you know, mentioned was not coachable or was reticent to tough coaching. He's on- Yeah... about his sixth team right now. Right. Uh, and, and, and, and he's on- Right... 17:29 a career backup circle na- named, uh, Carson Wentz. Right, right. Uh, but, like, uh, Hurts has already accomplished things that Wentz could only dream of. 17:37 He's already overcome things and bounced back from things, so the idea that Hurts is some sort of Carson Wentz-esque character doesn't seem right. 17:45 That whole coachability thing raises a spectrum, raises an r, throws red meat to certain segments of the population certainly. 17:53 Uh, uh, what, what do you make of it, and what have you heard about it?Yeah, you know what I think is most interesting about all this? Yeah. It isn't necessarily the unnamed sources to Tim McManus and Jeremy Fowler. 18:04 Right. It's Jeff McLane's reporting over the last 48 hours or so- Okay... the Bengals have no plans to rework Jalen Hurts' contract before this season, um- Mm-hmm... is underway or even before it ends. 18:15 Because to me, that's what's most interesting because that, that is telling you how the entire organization feels about Jalen Hurts, right? Right. 18:24 W- whatever's being said by assistant coaches on the staff, or teammates, or front office personnel, or Howie Roseman, or whoever it might be who is not willing to go on the record with- Right... 18:37 with their thoughts about Jalen Hurts as a player, if the organization is telling you, "We are not going to guarantee more money," he's in the last- Mm-hmm... year of any guaranteed money on the deal. 18:47 We're not going to rework this contract for a guy who has won a Super Bowl and appeared in two of them. 18:52 That tells me that there, th- there's some, I don't know if concern is the right word, but there, there is some trepidation about committing to him longterm. 19:00 Here's a guy who was 16th in passing yards last year, 12th in passer rating, but he's 10th among quarterbacks averaging $51 million per season, in an offense that boasts AJ Brown, Devonta Smith, Saquon Barkley, and Dallas Goedert. 19:12 It seems like internally, Mike, that they are putting some, some make or break, now again or never pressure on Jalen Hurts to deliver statistically this year. 19:23 Which I don't really understand the point of when you're a year removed from winning the Lombardi, and three years removed from a Super Bowl appearance that you made with Hurts in the first place. 19:33 It, i- it's, it's kind of bizarre to me s- to see a quarterback who has done this much winning- Yeah... still having to prove himself to p- at the highest levels of that organization. 19:42 Yeah, and there's layers to this right now, like, c- 'cause first of all, r- I'm looking at his contract, and reworking this contract is, uh, is a bomb disposal, you know, cutting green and red wires, in terms of all the opt-in bonuses and things like that. 19:55 Mm. So saying, "Well, we're not going to rework it this year," well, his, his cap number this year is, like, 31 million. That's low for a quarterback like him. 20:02 You're not gonna be able to get that any lower, so it might not be worth your while from that element of things. That might not be sending a message. Might also be sending a message. 20:11 I don't know if it's statistically that they want him to p- perform, but when I hear the coach ability thing, my first question is, well, is Nick Sirianni a, this great leader? 20:22 And, like, you've gone through multiple, uh, uh, coordinators and some of them got head coaching jobs, et cetera. You know, i- is it user error on the [chuckles] coach's part? That's one. 20:30 And the o- but the other f- side to this is o- on Hurts' side. You notice how the offense always looks the same no matter who the coordinator is? Yeah. 20:39 And is there a degree to which the, the reason why that offense flat lines, seems to only have, like, a couple of really base concepts that they go back to over and over again, is it to a degree to which he wants things a very specific way? 20:50 And the team is hoping, now with Sean Mannion, now with this new c- coaching, uh, staff, that he'll get the message to do things differently, to get the ball on the flat quicker, to do stuff like that. 21:02 And that's a message that they want to send out. It's like, yeah, you're not y- you're not safe, harmless from ev- from criticism ever here. We have expectations from you. 21:11 Maybe not so much leadership or what happens, you know, with two minutes in the fourth quarter, but running the offense the way we ask you to do. Maybe that's the message they're trying to send. 21:19 I, I, I think so, and I also think it lends a little more credibility and validity to the whispers that I was hearing from other buildings after the loss to the 49ers. Yeah. 21:28 When I had executives telling me that, you know, he's reluctant to put the ball in harm's way. Yeah. That he struggles on the intermediate passing routes. Yeah. 21:36 Uh, systematically, the offense forces the ball too often to AJ Brown to placate him early. Mm-hmm. All of those things about the offense looking the same and the identity being- Yeah... 21:46 the same that you just alluded to, maybe there was some validity to what those people outside of the building are saying- Right... 21:53 because people inside the building are finally catching up to, well, we've cycled through all of these coordinators. The common denominator has been the quarterback. 22:01 He's had a lot of success, but there seems to be an inability to sustain it year in- Mm... and year out. There's a down year off of a good year, right? 22:10 So w- with Sham- Sean Mannion coming in, reworking the system, this might be the time for Jalen Hurts to w- work more structurally within the scheme, so to speak, that they're trying to implement. And- Mm-hmm... 22:23 and not fall back on, uh, old habits, or at least improve on weak- perceived weaknesses. 22:28 Because one of the things that the Packers did a lot, and did really well, is funneling the ball over the middle of the field, down the seam to, to- Mm-hmm... 22:35 to Jayden Reeds, to slot receivers, to the Tucker Kraft- Right... the tight ends. Jalen Hurts was not good in that part of the field. One of the worst routes o- of his route tree is throwing over the middle. Yes. 22:45 It might be, "Hey, w- we're, we're, we're switching this up. W- you better, you better be able to show that you can run this system, 'cause this is the way that we're gonna try to win now." Right. 22:53 A- and we need that component of it, period. Even if it's not the focal point of what we do, it can't be a never-never. 'Cause some... 22:59 Especially for him, throwing over the middle, throwing to the number three guy, that's, like, a, an almost, "This is never going to happen. I'm never gonna do it. I don't do windows." 23:07 All that aside, the messaging, uh, to, to, to use foul language, the messaging is shitty. Yeah. You don't say shit like that. You don't say stuff like that about Josh Allen. You don't say stuff like that. 23:16 Uh, that's how you single out Black quarterbacks for messages like that. A lo- a lot of times you know who you're sending that message to and who you wanna rile up along the way. I, I, I don't like it. 23:26 If there are issues, I think that they should be solved internally, and if it's something where it's like, well, the message is that, uh, we're not renegotiating the contract, that's the message. 23:35 That we don't have to do this passive-aggressive thing and, like, oh, now we're setting him against AJ Brown again, and against Nick Sirianni again, and, and fomenting things. 23:43 And it's not, not for nothing, happens at, like, one of the slowest times of the year.So that all the talk shows, including us, have to sort of address it and try to m- uh, make some kind of hay out of it. 23:53 A- and I don't necessarily bl- blame McManus or Fowler for running with the story- No... because we all get anonymous sources. We all hear- Yeah... things from executives, from scouts, from people in- Yeah... 24:04 the building, from agents who represent players on that roster. We all hear things. Right. But where I think the Eagles might have dropped the ball here i- is not getting in front of the story. 24:13 The, the owners meetings were last week. Yeah. You know, you had access to Nick Sirianni. You had access to Howie Roseman. You had access to Jeffrey Lurie. 24:22 There could have been more of a commitment from the organization to Jalen Hurts, to what they have done, what they've won, uh, you know, looking and recognizing his accomplishments, winning a Super Bowl, getting to two Super Bowls, standing behind him. 24:36 Because you- Yeah... you basically left this narrative, uh, out of the barn. You left your quarterback swaying in the breeze. Yeah. 24:43 And I do wonder, given the way the contract is structured from a guaranteed standpoint, how many more of these narratives that Jalen Hurts and his management team are going to sit back and say, "You know what? 24:54 If you're not gonna rework the deal, maybe we don't show up to voluntary OTAs," right? Or, or maybe you start to force the issue and it gets real ugly after- Right... 25:02 an off-season of planting these messages and this narrative, uh, wi- with the media, uh, about their client. Right, and I don't think that's a this year problem. 25:11 So as, so, you know, what happens down the road, happens down the road. Did you see the whole Jalen thing that happened when they talked to Lurie, the Jalen incident? I, I didn't, no. Okay. They, they asked him about 25:23 J- Jalen's contract and Jalen's performance, and he gave up a couple of one-words, "Uh, there's no new progress. Uh, his, his performance was fine." 25:31 Then after a couple more questions, he was like, "Oh, wait, I thought you were asking about Jalen Carter. I thought you were asking about Jalen Carter." 25:40 Uh, and he literally, I think Lurie literally said, "Can I go back and can we re- reset, restack those questions?" Restack those. "Because I was confused and I thought you were asking about Carter." 25:49 Now that tells you something about with Jalen Carter, what they're thinking about him in the building right now. [laughs] Right, right. 25:55 Right, right, we, we, we want to make sure that, that, that guy don't get behind the wheel and he stays focused, et cetera. 26:00 Um, but then Lurie gave us the, the, the, the BS sandwich about like, like the, the, the, you know, how great Hurts is to the organization and how they wanna do everything to him. 26:09 So that's where we're at with th- [laughs] with, with this. Yeah. 26:13 Where I, I think there was almost like a DEFCON 2 situation with everybody running from the tables and saying that Lurie was very non-committal about Jalen Hurts, and then Lurie realizing and putting out a fire. 26:25 Part of that tells me that it's a little bit of, uh, it's silly season. But I can't dis- It's fun. Yeah, but I can't discount the possibility that there is friction based on what we're hearing. 26:36 I, I think there's no doubt there's friction, a- and I think that it's gonna be really interesting 'cause it seems like there's friction from all angles. Because I don't know how you mend fences with A.J. Brown. 26:45 I, I don't know what Nick Sirianni- Right... does to massage the relationship now with Jalen Hurts. 26:50 I don't know what sort of concessions from a preparation standpoint or an approach standpoint that Jalen Hurts now has to make to placate, um, the expectations of people in that building, if he even knows what, what, what they're expecting of him. 27:02 I mean, there, there are now a lot of behind-the-scenes vibes that need- Yeah... 27:08 to be adjusted and attitudes that need to be adjusted within that building it seems like before they get back on the field for OTAs in a few weeks here. It's not fun. No. It's not fun. It's not happy, happy, joy, joy. 27:19 I can see us this time next year being like, "Well, thank heavens they blew the team up. Thank heavens that A.J. is gone," and like, "Well, they tr- that being Jalen Hurts trade," I can see that in 2027. 27:31 It's not for us right now, but I can see if, if this team doesn't do what they did two years ago, I can see this being like, "Well, oh, here comes the start over. Here comes the plunger." 27:41 Yeah, mark the tape, 1:38 PM on- [laughs]... April 7th. I, I do think there's a non-zero chance to take a quarterback sometime Friday of the draft. Yeah, but who? Who that like... [laughs] How the hell do I know? 27:56 How the hell do I know, right? [laughs] I, with a, with the 62nd pick in the NFL Draft, the Philadelphia Eagles select quarterback... Yeah. From- Carson Beck... State. Yeah. Yeah. Right. 28:10 Uh, it's not, it's not a great year to do those, that sort of thing, but I think that- Yeah... es- especially taking a quarterback, who gives a damn? 28:18 Uh, I think that lights a brighter fire underneath Jalen Hurts than taking, you know, Aaron Rodgers when you still have Trent Herb on the roster. 28:26 I, I don't know if you can s- "You think so of me, you're gonna take me nobody, you're gonna take nobody from nowhere to bring into this building to challenge me? Really? That's what you think?" 28:34 I, I don't know if you can send that kind of message [laughs] with this draft, and I would not do it with a day two pick and say, "Oh, here, here's your challenger. 28:42 It's, it's, uh, it's Cole Payton," and then the Hurts be like, "Well, if that's where we're at, that's where we're at, then, then, then me and A.J. Brown are gonna go, uh, go to the library together." 28:51 I, you know, I, I don't know what to say about that. What the hell is going on in Baltimore, by the way? Because I, I, I'm looking at this and I'm looking... The, the, the contract angle I can almost understand. Yes. 29:03 But, but, but where, wh- wh- why is the drama that Lamar Jackson is in the building for the strength program wh- when, when he sat out the last time that his contract was an issue? Is that, is that the, the drama here? 29:16 I'm trying to make sense of what, of this storyline that I'm having a hard time wrapping my arms around why it's a big deal. Yeah, I was going to ask you, 'cause I thought maybe you had more understanding of this. 29:26 'Cause Pro Football Talk keeps talking about how there's, like, a Lamar Jackson drama around the contract, and yesterday on the ESPN shows, uh, they sent poor Ov- uh, Ozlowski out there to be like... 29:39 You, you know, he, he's, he's, he's the first responder you send in with the, like, the weird take and it's like, "Uh, you know, Jackson has to be there. His leadership's in question." 29:47 And Jackson was thereI don't, I think, I think- Right, right... 29:50 I, I think there was some confusion that Jackson actually, you know, showed up on time and was like, uh, I don't know, doing what you do the first day of OTAs, you know, throwing a, a Nerf ball or, or whatever, and ESPN's trying to do this thing like his leadership is questionable. 30:04 I know both sides want a contract, but it's not... I- it's more of a Ravens priority for this year than it is a Jackson priority, so I don't know where the big spectacle and drama is except that I keep hearing about it. 30:19 Yeah, a- and, uh, all you've heard this off-season is that a Lamar Jackson extension is coming, that it has to come, and it makes sense, right? Right. Because they're projected to be $12.3 million over the cap next year. 30:31 Yes. They'll only have $29.5 million in cap space for the rest of this year, which it makes sense- Right... that you'd wanna extend Lamar Jackson. 30:39 I, I would have probably, if I'm Steve Bisciotti, I would have probably preferred to have this wrapped up and done, if I was Eric DeCosta- Right... by, like, Valentine's Day so that I- Right... 30:49 could have paired Max Crosby with Trey Hendrickson and had- Right... this Lamar Jackson nonsense off the table, off the desk, off the board. Right. But that's not where we are right now, right? 30:58 So you wanna get an- Right... extension done. A- and I get it, you know, from both sides to a degree, because when you look at Lamar Jackson's contract, it, it's a similar situation that Jalen Hurts is in, right? 31:09 Because he only has $1.3 million guaranteed this year, no guaranteed money next year, and then it's all void years from '28 to 2030. Yeah. 31:19 And void years each year, so I can see why Lamar Jackson would want to get a new extension done. I can see- Right... why the Ravens would wanna lower the cap number. 31:28 This costs $84.4 million against the cap next year, so you, you- Yeah... need to lower that, like, yesterday. You need to get that- Yeah... lowered. Um, but, but this is what you do if you're Lamar Jackson, right? 31:37 You, you are the good soldier. You're doing the right thing. Yeah. It's a new head coach. It's a new offensive coordinator. It's a new staff. You're in the building for strength and conditioning. You're lifting- Yeah... 31:46 weights with your teammates. You're around the building. Right. Why is this drama, eh? Unle- unless you're- It-... 31:51 advocating for him to force the issue by staying away and, like, taking a stand on social media and, like, blacking out the Ravens logo on all his social media photos. [laughs] Like, what, what are we talking about here? 32:03 Right. A- and it's i- important to, uh, remind folks that Lamar Jackson does not have an a- an agent. No. And he really doesn't have an agent. 32:11 Like, it's not like, well, his mom sort of takes care of things, and there's, like, somebody else, but it's really, like, like, like, elite not agent level. 32:19 So sometimes, uh, the DeCostas are, are picking up the phone and, like, trying to contact somebody, and they don't know who necessarily they're trying to get. Jackson is not a talker. 32:28 He's not somebody who gives a bunch of interviews. He'll talk during OTAs, and he'll be like, "Uh, God is good. Uh, w- th- these things take care of themselves," and that's all you're gonna get from him. 32:37 So I think sometimes we project our, what we want him to think or what we want him to say on him, and that he's playing some kind of dimensional ches- chess contract-wise, when it's really, like, it's not getting handled by the normal channels who would, uh, dis- seep out information to us. 32:54 I think that's a lot of what's going on, and I think there's a little bit of last time there was a contract drama, it turned into a trade request, and it turned into one of the big... 33:04 People still talk about, "Oh, the Falcons didn't go after Lamar Jackson when they could have. Well, what does that tell us about blah, blah, blah, blah, blah?" Like, whatever. 33:12 Illusion was there from one of these- Oh, an illusion later-... free agent teams. Right. When we just talked a moment ago, Dexter Lawrence is in the same sur- circumstance. 33:19 Like, oh, the budget has been put in, you're, like, this other thing, and, like, these, these teams are not, like, run that well [laughs] that they can, they can turn on a dime. 33:29 So I think that there's a degree to which Lamar Jackson's famous, there is some contract dispute out there, they want a negotiation. Let's make it bigger than it really is. 33:36 Now, he could, he could walk away and, and not show up next week or whatever, make us eat our words right at whatever. Right now it just seems like it's a manufactured drama. 33:46 Yeah, and, and I don't know what people would expect him to do, uh, because if, if he did hold out during the voluntary, or not even hold out at- Yeah... that point. 33:53 If he didn't show up to voluntary workouts, if he didn't- Yeah... show up to the building, people would be saying, "What the hell's wrong with Lamar? He's holding out." Right. It'd be all this criticism of Lamar Jackson. 34:04 It'd be all of this drama, you know, put his way. But if, but if I'm the Ravens, to me- Right... it, it's a measure of good faith having him in the building for this. 34:13 It's an opportunity to have a dialogue with him directly while he's in the building and try to get this wrapped up and, and tied up into a bow, because I think it's beneficial for both sides to get this done. Yes. 34:24 If you're Lamar, you don't wanna go into next off-season with an $81 million cap number hanging over your head with no guaranteed money. Right. 34:32 And if you're the Ravens, you don't wanna be stuck in a situation where, you know, you're, you're, you're alienating an MVP quarterback who you've built your entire franchise around, whether it's Derrick Henry, Rashod Bateman, Zay Flowers, all of the resources you put into the defense trying to win a certain way. 34:49 You don't wanna alienate your quarterback. You don't wanna have to start over from there, picking in the 20s next year. Get a deal done. Start the conversation now. 34:57 Get a deal done, but I have a funny feeling, if you remember, Lamar Jackson's last contract got signed, like, a week or two after Jalen Hurts' contract, and it's almost like the, the, uh, folks who handle Jackson's, uh, accounts for him stole a template and said, "Can you give us a version of this?" 35:13 And that's how it got done. I don't know who's up for a contract right now. I don't know if there's somebody other quarterback. It's like Josh Allen's not up for a contract. Mahomes is not up for a contract. 35:22 There's no template. Not Burrow. Right. Right, not Burrow. Somebody's gonna have to come and s- and, and, and get somebody on the phone there and say, "Here's... 35:29 We're creating something new here," and I don't know what that looks like because of the unique way Lamar Jackson and his people do business. Right. 35:37 A- and just to, you know, take this a step further, when you look at the quarterback market, right? I mean, uh, it... I, I will say that it is time to rework Lamar Jackson's deal. He's averaging out $52 million per year. 35:49 Dak Prescott sets, sets the benchmark at 60 million. Yeah. But he makes less than Joe Burrow, Josh Allen, Jordan Love, Trevor Lawrence, Jared Goff, Brock Purdy, Justin Herbert, and, uh, just more than Jalen Hurts at 51. 36:02 Right. If, if I'm, if I'm Lamar Jackson, I walk in and I say, "Hey, you know, give me-56 million. Uh, you know- Right... I don't need to necessarily be the highest paid quarterback in the sport. 36:12 I don't need to be the, uh, Dak Prescott of this thing. Um, but the total guaranteed on Dak Prescott's deal was 231 million. Pay me $56 million annually and 232 million guaranteed- [laughs]... and let's call it a day. 36:27 Yeah, it, it, it would probably look something like that. I, I don't know, I've never heard of a football player saying, "I don't need to be the highest paid guy." 36:34 Um, but he, you know, but, but it, realistically they'll, they'll make the numbers look like he's the highest paid guy for, like, three weeks and then somebody will match it. But yeah, it should be, it should be doable. 36:44 But again, you know, Lamar Jackson isn't the guy who does that. 36:47 That's the, that is the job of an agent normally, and that's where we run into this impasse, 'cause again, uh, other guys, it's like, oh, Cal Williams' dad runs things or whatever. 36:55 With Lamar, uh, and I'm not saying, well, a mom, a dad can and a mom can't or whatever, but it's, it's never been run in a normal way. Let's just put it that way. 37:04 Right, and I, and I think Lamar's pretty hands-on and involved in, in- Yeah... those actual talks, which, which is kind of bizarre. And it also, it creates an information vacuum, right? Right. 37:12 Because you or I can't pick up the phone and call somebody from the agency that represents him, or his agent and say- Yeah... "Hey, on background here, what's the deal? What, what are you looking for?" Right. 37:21 "What's the benchmark? What's the number? What are you hope..." There's none of that. You don't have- There's none of it... 37:26 this access as a reporter and, a- and the Ravens obviously are gonna play their cards close to the vest. 37:31 And, you know, whether you're talking about drafting a quarterback to put pressure on the Eagles, whether you're talking about, uh, drafting a quarterback to have depth behind Lamar Jackson in Baltimore, this is not the draft to go quarterback shopping. 37:44 No. It's just not. No. No, I think they re-signed Snoop. Yeah. Baltimore did. I think they did, right, because it's like, well, we gotta roll with this. 37:53 Um, the Eagles, the, you pick up the phone for the backup for the Eagles and they're like, [laughs] and they give you some goofy baloney number because those quarterbacks aren't there. 38:00 And, uh, we're both feeling it right now, by the way, 'cause you wrote about the draft and I've started writing about the draft. And, uh, thank you all of you who are listening if you've been reading our draft coverage. 38:10 But a lot of people aren't and that, and that's because, not because you guys so don't love the NFL or lo- love supporting us or something like that. This draft class just isn't that interesting. 38:20 [laughs] I don't think it- No... piques a lot of your curiosity. [laughs] No, and, and I talk about this all the time with, with the, the bus stop dad next door. It's like, oh, what do you- Uh-huh... 38:29 hear about the NFL draft? And I'm like, "Meh. Meh." Right, what are you- There are not a lot of great players in this year's draft. I mean- Yeah... 38:35 uh, Jeremiah Love is gonna be awesome, and you wrote about Jeremiah Love today in your top running backs piece. Mm-hmm. I have him number one on my board, which we'll get to in a few minutes here. 38:44 [laughs] You have one franchise quarterback. You have some pretty damn good edge rushers. You have a couple of really good wide receivers, and then- Yes... what? Right. Then what? Then what? Right. 38:54 You got, like, a dozen guys, and they're scattered at all the positions. So it's not like, oh, well, we really have to talk about, you know, is it gonna be Jeremiah Love or is it going to be this other guy? 39:04 There is no this other guy, you know? Is it gonna be Mendoza or is it gonna be Ty Simpson? It is not. It is never, it is never going to be Ty Simpson, okay? Uh, is, you know, is it gonna be Kenyon Sadik? 39:16 It's like, oh, gosh, we're talking about tight ends. Oh my God, we're talking about tight ends. 39:20 Uh, but [laughs]- Yeah, and, and you put together an offensive big board and it, and there's three or four offensive linemen in there, and- Uh-huh... after those three or four offensive linemen, 39:29 I, I don't get the sense there's a lot of depth in round two onward at, along the offensive line. It's just- Right... this is a ve- uh, full disclosure, this is a very, uh, pedestrian, uh, that- Yeah... 39:42 that might be insulting to pedestrians- [laughs]... crossing the street to, to get to the boardwalk in Ocean City. You're right. 39:48 It is a pedestrian [laughs] NFL draft, a- and it's not an easy one to, to scout because you're trying to, like, talk yourself into narratives and talk yourself- Yeah... 39:56 into scouting reports because it's just not popping off the tape. Th- th- that's it, and it's like, well, so you know, we can talk today, we can talk in two weeks. Thank heavens we don't have to talk an hour a night. 40:08 Thank heavens we're not, like, dedicated draft people. 40:11 I, I, I, I look at our, our colleagues who are team beats, whether the Eagles beats, Commanders beats, Giants beats, and they're trying to like, like, is this guy the right fit, you know? 40:22 And you're, you're, you're, you're putting somebody like Eli Stowers out there. Is he the right fit at tight end? It's like he, I don't even wanna think about drafting [laughs] this individual. 40:30 It's like, yeah, you put him on your team, maybe he comes out, maybe he's your tight end two, tight end three, whatever. We're gonna build a content model about this. 40:36 Again, thank you for listening, folks, because it is rough. It is chewy. It is, it is draftniks only, and like you said, you had to put a top 10 list together, and it was hard to get... 40:47 I, I think you find it's hard to find 10 guys that, like, this is gonna generate enthusiasm for fans. Right, and, and for me personally, and I put this on social media on Blue Sky, and I'll say it again here, 40:59 I, I, I admittedly have a bit of a blind spot to evaluating offensive line play, right? Uh-huh. Like, I, I can watch an offensive lineman and say, "Oh man, that dude's a stiff. He's a turnstile." Yeah. 41:08 But it's hard for me to understand what makes technically sound, really good offensive line play- Right... 41:17 watching it and how to separate a, a, a, a Vega from, uh, you know, a, a Vega from Penn State from, from a Fano from, from Utah, right? Or, or- Yeah... or a Freeling from a, a Amauglo. It, it's hard for me- Yeah... 41:32 to parse those- Right... separate the, the, those two type of players. 41:35 I can watch a wide receiver and be like, "Oh, wow, he has really good separation," or, "What a smooth route runner," or, "Wow, he jumps out of the building to catch 50/50 balls." 41:43 It's hard for me to differentiate offensive linemen who are really good, and at that point it's like th- there's only, like, 41:51 four or five of these best of 10 offensive players are offensive linemen because it's just that type of class. Right. It's not a great star caliber type of class this year. 41:59 Right, and I'm, I'm okay with offensive linemen. 42:01 Now the problem is I have to watch, like, three or four games to get a real sense of them to have any idea what's going on because, you know, if you, you can't just, like, watch a highlight reel of an offensive lineman. 42:11 You can't really do that for drafting anyway. But m- my problem usually is cornerbacks, by the wayThere's a really good cornerback, it's like, hike, up. Uh, they're throwing the other side of the field. Hike, up. 42:22 They're throwing to the other side of the field, because there's a really good cornerback. Yeah. 42:26 So you're, you know, I- I'll be watching, uh, Delane from LSU, and it's just like, I'm just watching him sort of backpedal and stop, backpedal and stop, backpedal and stop. 42:36 Really good offensive lineman, it can be like that as well. It's like, hike, my dude's blocked. Hike, my dude's blocked. Yeah. Hike... 42:43 Like, you, you get in the turnstile, you'll catch that, 'cause they'll be like, "Oh, I'm on my, I'm on, I'm on my ass," whatever. 42:48 And it's like, well, how is that dude who blocked everybody the sa- diff better than this dude who blocked everybody? 42:53 And how much of the dude who blocked everybody is a byproduct of the blocking scheme that he happens- Mm-hmm... to be playing in, right? Like- Right... that, that's where there's not much separation. 43:01 And, uh, we're gonna get into some of the top offensive players on my board, but next Monday, the, um, top 10 defensive players comes out, and I have a feeling that I'm gonna need to, uh, push Mesidor, the edge rusher out of Miami, a little bit further up the board. 43:16 Oh. Because full disclosure here, speaking to an executive last week- Okay... he said Mesidor is a legitimate first-round talent, put him higher than you think. Okay. 43:26 And today, texting someone on Dexter Lawrence, a defensive line coach- Uh-huh... uh, he asked me unsolicited after giving me his thoughts on Dexter Lawrence, "Hey, what are you hearing on Mesidor?" 43:37 So clearly, his team is in- Yeah... on Mesidor, and he's trying to get him into his defensive line room. Right. Right. How do you not know anything about Mesidor? I think he's been in college 13 years. Yes. 43:48 He's a, he's a guy I can ask if he's mowed the lawn and gotten the shorts out yet. He's, uh, he's one of the older prospects, but he, he's, he's a good ballplayer. That's interesting that he's getting the buzz right now. 43:58 I, it's like, were you not watching Miami footage, guys? [laughs] Right, and you would not watch, uh, you know, some of the other, uh- Right... linemen on the, this class, you know? 44:08 Right, when, when you were watching Ruben Bain and he didn't get the sack 'cause the quarterback was on the ground, at some point I hope you asked, "Hey, who got the sack there?" 44:15 'Cause that was who it was in a lot of cases. It was, yes. 44:19 I'm just saying that if we're gonna, you know, have our one, two, three, four edge rushers, Mesidor might get bumped up a, a rung on my list, just because of the buzz- Yeah... inside the league. Right. 44:28 Well, if he, compared to these offensive guys, so many of [laughs] those defensive players, uh, are, are higher. Let's roll through your, your offensive guys here and let's, and let's see what's going on. 44:38 Yeah, so I go Jeremiah Love at number one. I'd love to get your thoughts on Jeremiah Love in a second. I think if I'm putting together, like, a top 25 overall, Love would probably be my number one overall prospect. 44:48 Mm-hmm. From an AFC scout, quote, "Conventional wisdom says don't take a running back that high, but this dude is a special talent and a special kid. Why can't he have a Bijan or Saquon-type impact?" unquote. 44:59 Uh, your, your thoughts on Jeremiah Love. Of course he can. Look at Bijan. Look at the Falcons. Five straight Super Bowls, right? Look at Saquon's Giants. Weren't they great? 45:08 He can absolutely, yeah, my dear friend, he can absolutely have a Bijan, Saquon, Ashton Jeanty talent. He's exactly that kind of player. But there's a reason the conventional wisdom is to not take a guy good... 45:20 And you said it in the course of your sentence. Yeah. [laughs] I mean, I, I'm sorry. Like, he can't exactly have a Bijan, Saquon on the Giants type of ta- He's exactly that kind of guy. So where, where do you draft him? 45:34 [laughs] Uh, I, I, I, I keep hearing this buzz of him going to the Titans, and it's like- Yes... I don't re- I don't really und- I, I understand it, but I don't. Yeah. Because I think he can elevate Cam Ward. Yeah. 45:45 I think that he can thrive in Brian Daboll's system. But I ironically think that if he makes it past Tennessee, and you're talking about the Giants at number five, to me, that, that's the spot. 45:57 The, the Giants feel more ready right now than they did when they took Saquon Barkley at number two. Because I'm with you. Right. 46:04 I don't think you take a running back all that high because you, you risk Bijan-ing- Right... or early Saquon-ing him. Right. You risk Josh Jacobs-ing him with the Raiders because the- Yeah, there's another-... 46:15 because your roster isn't- Yeah... isn't ready. When your roster is ready, when your team is good, when your team is a contender- Yeah... the running back can be the difference maker. He can be the- Right... 46:23 Kenneth Walker. He can be Derrick Henry in Baltimore. You need to have the roster around him, the infrastructure around him to, to make it matter. Right. I think he matters with the Giants. 46:31 I think he's a lock, he goes top 10. Mm-hmm. I think the ideal spot might actually be the Giants. How about you? I think the Titans might take him, and they're going to talk themselves. They're going to give that. 46:41 They'll say, they'll recite the conventional wisdom. 46:43 It's like, "Well, you know, we have the quarterback now, and we think we're ready to compete at this level, and he's going to come in, and he's gonna be the security blanket for Ca- Cam Ward." 46:51 And, like, that all sort of makes some degree of sense, and he'll run for 1300 yards, and the team will go six and 11. 46:58 You know, unless Ward has a super blossom, which is possible, but, like, there's a lot of range to go. Giants are less ridiculous. I, I still don't, I don't see it at this point. 47:09 If I had more clarity on Dexter Lawrence, maybe I'd say it. "Oh, we, we paid Dexter Lawrence, he's happy, he's in the fold. We're going to win with sacks and neighbors and this, and this trio." Eh, okay, fine. 47:21 I look down a little bit. Obviously, the Chiefs are off the board now 'cause they got Kenneth Walker. You s- you talk me into the Commanders. I look at the Bengals. 47:30 It's, it's, it's- Titans could be fun I mean- Could be fun... they're the 1980s Lakers at that point, and it's like, "Yeah, we're gonna beat you, you know, 120 to 102," but it, it could be fun. 47:40 But, like, every time I say, "Well, this team is ready," it's like there's a reason that we keep saying that team is as not as ready as you think. And it's the defense in Cincinnati. And if you're- Yes... 47:50 talking about, you know, Jeremiah Love, and you're just looking at positional value, if I'm talking positional value for the Giants, I'm taking Caelan Downs because I need to- Yeah... get that safety. 48:01 I need to improve a secondary that was pretty pedestrian a year ago. I think that if I'm looking positional value, I'm taking Downs. I'm taking- Yeah... the better player and trying to win with a trio. 48:10 I take Jeremiah Love. Uh, obviously number two on the board, Fernando Mendoza. Had a quarterback coach- Yeah... 48:16 tell me, quote, "I worry about his lack of quick twitch, but other than that, he's a solid prospect and a solid quarterback" unquote.Yeah. Yeah I guess. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's... 48:26 He, he's, he's the best quarterback, and he's good enough, and we- and he's going to the Raiders, and Clint Kubiak and- There's no pressure to start. 48:34 There's no pressure to start because they signed Kirk Cousins to this massive deal. He's the- Right... short-term bridge. He's the short-term- Right... 48:42 bridge where I'm going to imp- uh, if I'm Clint Kubiak, I'm gonna implement my system and my scheme with Brock Bowers and Ashton Jeanty. I have a competent quarterback to install it. You know- Yeah... 48:54 Kirk Cousins can be this highly paid quarterback coach on the field to Fernando Mendoza, and we can start one and four, and by week five, Fernando Mendoza will be in there, and, uh, y- you know, mission accomplished. 49:08 Offense- Yeah... can, can function freely. Right. The enthusiasm of all this is just, like, ah. But that's it. But that's who Mendoza is. He is QB1, right? 49:18 If I'm, if I was doing, when I do my list, which I will do my list, I mean, he might wind up nine, 10 overall on guys. 49:25 'Cause it's like you can say, well, regardless of positional value, you can't say that with quarterback. No. But regardless of positional value, it's a quarterback. It's like he might be 27th or something like that. 49:34 I don't, I lack the statistical ability to evaluate that at that level, so I'll put him in there after Love and after, uh, Styles and after Downs, and like, eh, and here's Mendoza too. Um, who's next? 49:46 And, and I have Carnell, I have Carnell Tate at number three. Okay. Uh-huh. Uh, from an AFC executive, "He has everything you want in a wide receiver. 49:53 He's number one in this class, and he has the durability on top of everything else," unquote. Just to me, he's the most well-rounded receiver of, of, of the b- of the bunch. 50:01 Doesn't have the high-end speed, but good route runner. He can block. He, he's, he's not afraid of, uh, getting his, his hands dirty in the running game. 6'3", 195, big-bodied red zone target, good route runner. 50:15 Uh, to me, he's wide receiver one and offensive prospect three. He, I guess he's, he is wide receiver one, I think. Um, he's a quarterb- he's a wide receiver two in the NFL. He's a- Right... 50:27 high-level wide receiver two in the NFL. I put Michael Pittman in there as a comp when I finally put them out there. That's a good one. That's, y- yeah, he's smaller. 50:35 He's a smaller guy than Pittman, but he has a very similar game, and that, that's my problem here, 'cause we're talking about the third best offensive player on the board. 50:42 We're talking about wide receiver one, and we're talking about a guy so incredibly awesome that he got traded as an afterthought to the Steelers this off-season. 50:50 So th- that's, that's my worry with this, where y- you know, where Carnell Tate as the third guy we're talking about, I, again, I think he's gonna be a good pro, but gosh. God. I know. Yeah. 51:02 And you meet the offensive tackles here. Francis Yep... Muegoa at number four out of Miami. A prototypical left tackle, plug and play. Yeah. You, you need a tackle, go get him. Right. 51:13 Now, he played right tackle most of his career. He could move over. He, he, he could play. Definitely. That's a great point. Yeah, I... Well, we'll see. We'll see. He can play. 51:22 I, I, just let me put it, I, I have his stuff up here right now. Uh, CC Mue- M- Muegoa played 995 sacks at right tackle, uh, for the Hurricanes in '25, 862 in 2024, 833 snaps in 2023. He has blocked for Cam Ward. 51:38 He's blocked for Carson Beck. He played a Pop-Tart poll, a Pinstripe poll, playoff games, and a championship game. You have, like, the basics of the, this guy has played a lot of football. You can trust him. 51:49 A lot of trust him. You can trust him. He's fine. He's good. That's, that's fine. Uh, he, he could end up with the Browns certainly. They're sitting there with no left tackle. 51:59 Again, they could move him over and say, "You're at right tackle. We move a different guy." I, I don't think he, he escapes the top 10. I agree. I, I love Kenyon Sadiq coming in here at number five. 52:10 You could have probably- Yes... talked to me into putting him somewhere in the top three. Uh, just your elite athlete, uh, with the, the testing numbers that are off the charts. 52:20 Uh, 6'3", 245, big-bodied target, red zone target, uh, speed after the catch. Yep. And you look at Dante Moore, his passer rating when throwing to Sadiq last year was an almost perfect 145.5 passer rating. 52:35 So you know he's reliable. That's nice. Set it and forget it. He's your next, uh, in the footsteps of George Kittle, Travis Kelce, Dallas Goddard as your prototypical NFL modern-day pass-catching tight end. 52:47 And he can block decently. I've heard all kinds of crazy stuff about his blocking. One, one thing about his blocking is you can actually see it. If you put on an Oregon game, you will see him block it. 52:57 'Cause a lot of times when you talk about the, your Kyle Pitts types, you will put on the, the, the film, and you will see them in the slot playing slot receiver over and over and over again, and you'll see Sadiq actually going out there, uh, you know, as an H-back and kinda going into the hole. 53:10 You will see mistakes, but the fact that he's doing it is a sign that he can do it. He was trusted to do it. I like him. I put a little, I put Tyler Warren out there as a comp. Good one. 53:20 Yeah, I don't know why- Good move... there are Colt comps. A lot of Colt comps right now. Uh, but like, uh, I think Warren was a bigger guy. 53:25 Obviously, he did crazy stuff like play quarterback and all, but, uh, that kind of, like, impact as a, as a rookie, I think Sadiq can have it. 53:33 Tight ends, you don't wanna draft them too high, but we've reached the point where you say, "Well, we don't wanna draft this guy too high. You don't wanna draft that guy." You gotta, you gotta draft a guy. 53:41 Best player available to, you know- Best player available... gotta take your best player or, or somebody who fits your need, and- Right... Sadiq might be a guy who checks both those boxes. 53:49 Uh, coming in at number six, and maybe the strongest quote, uh, from anyone inside the league that I spoke to about these guys was Makai Lemon, wide receiver out of USC, says, quote- Uh-huh... 53:59 "We like Lemon a lot, especially as a slot receiver, but he's a combo who can also play the Z. He's in a similar mold to Jaxon Smith-Njigba," from an AFC personnel executive. Okay. Very interesting high-end comp there. 54:13 Right. To me, Mike, I watch him, really excellent route runner, next gear acceleration, after-the-catch weapon, um, 79 passes for 1,156 yards, averaged 6.4 yards after the catch- After the catch... per reception. Yeah. 54:26 If you had me in a GM chair, and you had me going to take a wide receiver, I think Tate might be more the complete package. 54:33 You might have to talk me out of taking Makai Lemon if I were looking for a wide receiverI've heard the JSN comparison, I've heard the Amon-Ra St. Brown comparison. 54:42 I always worry a little bit because those are the guys you grab when you say, "Well, the actual physical package isn't that great, but man, we really, really like him." You know? 54:51 [laughs] And, and if you, if you whiff on that, you get a guy that's like, "Oh, he's not that big and he's not that fast." In this case, he is a tough guy, he is a very good short route guy, he is a good yak guy. 55:02 Um, he's... Again, I, I have him as my wide receiver two, but again, uh, it's like well, my wide receiver one isn't as high as I'd like, and the guy who can't climb past him isn't as high as you'd like. 55:12 These are guys I love mid to late first round. In a typical dra- And then year after year, yes. Yeah, in a typical draft, oh, they could fall to a team in the teens, a team that was in the playoffs. 55:21 They could fall to the Panthers, they could fall to the Eagles. They're not going to this year, and that's what worries me about them, is that you're going to get wide receiver two or, like, good slot guy 55:32 players at, like, wide receiver one, Malik Nabers, Jamar Chase prices and expectations. That's what worry. Right, you almost have to decide that you're going to load up on your defense early- Yes... 55:41 because that's where a lot of the strength is in this draft- Mm-hmm... and you push some of those receivers down, and all of a sudden a guy, McKai Lemon becomes valuable at pick 18, if he's on the- Right... 55:50 board that long, right? Right. Uh, b- because i- he, they, they might be pretty good wide receivers compared to the rest of this class, but you aren't a lot of true alpha dog, number one wide receivers- Right... 56:00 that are gonna be perennial all-pros, top of the depth chart players at the NFL level. Right. Right, and that's it, so you have to kind of balance those things. So, so are you getting the fifth best edge rusher? 56:10 That might not be the best plan either. It's like now it's time to just grab these guys. And you can't trade down when everyone's looking at the same board and saying, "No, we, we don't wanna move up." 56:19 There's no reason to move up, especially when- Yeah... next year is supposed to be loaded, especially at quarterback and, and more talented- Yeah... overall. Number seven, Vega Ioane, offensive guard- Yes... 56:27 from Penn State, decided to reach out to, uh, Duke Manyweather, good friend of mine- Ooh... offensive line trainer, uh, runs O- O-Line Masterminds. He said, quote, "There isn't much on tape that Vega can't do. 56:38 He's physical-" Right "... good technique, movement skills, elite play strength, and just very savvy," unquote. 56:45 Um, I, I might have him too low at number seven, but I have a feeling he's gonna be one of the first two off interior offensive linemen who go off the board, and I could see someone like the Jets taking him at 16 if he's still sitting there and planting him next to Olu Fashanu, another Penn State- Yeah, once... 57:01 Yeah, he, he's a guard-flavored guard. Here's the guard, put him in, he's your starting guard. You're fine. He's maybe not Quentin Nelson, but he's going to be your starting guard to, like, fill that hole. 57:11 And that's where you would look for somebody like that, is in those teams, whether it's the Jets in there or, I don't have the list in front of me, some of the other teams. Strong case. 57:20 I mean, the one thing is he's your guard. Yeah. All right, so it's [laughs] Not a tackle. He's not a tackle. He, he, he's not exciting, but he w- can solve a problem for a team, very good player. 57:29 I have a couple linemen listed ahead of him, but only because, uh, like, if it looks like you could play left tackle, I tend to put you above guards on my little list, so. 57:38 And, and probably a little biased there 'cause I've watched him so often and seen some- Uh-huh... of the cool things they did with him in Happy Valley. Like, when he got a full head of steam as a pulling guard- Yes... 57:45 on, like, some of those end arounds, it was, it was insane, you know, some of the things he was able to do. Right. Uh, so if you can replicate some of that into your playbook, he could be really interesting. 57:54 Uh, Spencer Fano, tackle at Utah, number eight for me. Stonewall, really good in pass protection. Uh, could be, could be a, a building block for a team. 58:04 I, uh, I'm, I'm probably alone in this, but I have his teammate, Kaleb Olomu, ahead of him. 58:11 Um, I don't wanna get into the weeds as to why, because I have to actually look it up, 'cause I actually get them mixed up sometimes when I'm talking about them, 'cause they both play for Utah, they both have four-letter last names. 58:19 It can be a little bit tricky with that. Um, but, um, that's kinda w- we're, we're already there now, where it's like, uh- Yes... yeah, you gotta... 58:28 Here's a right tackle from Utah who played a little left tackle early in his career, and, like, he's a reasonably good prospect. But w- where are we, number seven? Uh, number eight on the board. Where are we? 58:39 We're, we're number eight on the board, and we're talking about one of the two tackles from Utah. Who's at nine? [laughs] Uh, Jordan Tyson, a little bit more fun. Yeah. Arizona State. 58:48 Uh, front office, uh, executive quote, "Tyson's a solid player, but some injury concerns-" Yeah "... and I wonder if they'll push him further down boards." 58:56 Uh, the really bad knee injury, I think it was last year, the MCL and the PCL- Yeah... uh, really banged, uh, re- really played a role in his career. 59:04 Uh, but Sun Devils quarterbacks had a 108.2 passer rating throwing to him a year ago. Deep threat, lots of separation, lots of speed, but can the knee hold up? 59:13 That's what you're gonna have to, have to weigh against i- in, in your war room. Yeah, it's knee, I've got hamstring, I've got a collarbone injury in 2024. He was ta- he was... He talks at length about his injuries. 59:27 He, he really works hard to get better and get to improve. Kind of a short pass target. Um, you know, I have him below, uh, Chris Brazell from Tennessee, who's, like, a big six foot three, uh, specimen of a guy. 59:42 I have him below Zechariah Branch, but that's me being a weird, uh, weirdo here. Out of Georgia, he's total screen pass guy. He's, like, screen pass jitterbug. But, you know, Tyson's somebody. 59:51 I, he, he, his family background, lot of athletes, got an NBA player in the background there. Um, s- solid player if he can stay healthy. 1:00:00 But again, not somebody I look at and say, "Oh, he's gonna catch 14 touchdown passes for you." He's more of a wide receiver two type, somebody who snaps off the shorter route, somebody who's good on third downs. 1:00:10 Mo- move the chains kinda guy, which- Move the chains kinda guy... every offense needs, every offense needs one of those. And rounding out the top 10, we have Monroe Freeling from Georgia. Yes. 1:00:18 Uh, athleticism, tested well. Yes. Uh, six foot seven, 315. Yes. Big dude. Uh, only allowed one quarterback sack and five pressures last year according to Pro Football Focus. Really sturdy. 1:00:31 You could probably talk me into putting him a few notches higher on my board, uh, but I have him at number 10 at the momentHim and Caden Brockter out of Alabama are two, like six foot seven. 1:00:43 This looks like somebody from Asgard. 1:00:45 They're major program SEC guys at left tackle, and when you start watching them, and I started watching them, and if you are somebody who can nitpick, you can nitpick them because it's like, "Well, I'm the biggest guy here," and like, "Ah, if I lean too far in one direction or my feet get crossed, I still probably make the block." 1:01:00 Both of them, when you get late in the first round, and you get your Eagles, 1:01:03 and you get your Bills, and you get you these teams who are like, "Well, we, we've got two starting tackles now," but Lane Johnson or whoever, uh, Dion Dawkins, a year or two might replace them. 1:01:14 These are the guys they're gonna get 'cause the athleticism for both Freeleing and Proctor is so elite that if you don't have to plug them in right away, and you have a good line coach, and you, you feel confident with that process, you're gonna get a heck of a player there. 1:01:27 Again, really good players, really good prospects I think for the long term, but guys I would think of as 1:01:33 26th, 28th, 29th, 32nd in the draft, that sort of player, not somebody where it's like you're gonna get an immediate helper. Yeah, I think you're gonna see a lot of that. 1:01:42 You're gonna see a lot of guys who are in any other draft early second round, late first- Yeah... round going in the top 15 or 20 in this year's class. But- Yeah... 1:01:52 I think it's gonna be a lot more fun putting together the top 10 defensive boards- Oh, yeah... 1:01:56 next week just from the people that I've spoken to, just from the eye test of watching some of these pass rushers and defensive backs. Uh- Yeah... 1:02:03 a lot more meat on the bone for the top 10 defenders that we'll put together next week. Absolutely. Off-ball linebackers too, I think people know about the edges. 1:02:11 Defensive tackle's wobbly 'cause Caleb Banks probably has... doesn't even have feet anymore. Cornerbacks are really stepping up in terms of, like, I had a bunch of guys, like check his 40, check his 40, check his 40. 1:02:23 Like the d- the, the lads from Tennessee, they put up big 40s. I was working on Jacob Rodriguez earlier, a linebacker out of Texas Tech. Good player. He's gonna be... 1:02:31 Yeah, he's gonna be number two on the linebacker board 'cause we got a young man named Sonny Stiles at number one. But man- Athlete freak. Yep. Right. 1:02:39 So if you're coming into this and saying, "Man, we need defense in the top 15," this is a draft we can get all kind of exciting guys. Absolutely. Uh, saw you debuted the... 1:02:48 I guess, uh, are we still branding it the Too Deep 96? Because we had- Yeah... the Drew Allen profile last week. We had the, uh, the Jeremiah Love profile today. What's next in the pipeline? 1:02:59 What, what's coming up on the Too Deep Zone? We're, we're still branding it as the Too Deep 96, and there will be a Too Deep 96 right before the draft where everybody will be ranked in order. 1:03:09 But man, it's hard, and what I learned last year, by the way, it's hard putting them in order 1:03:15 because you get to somewhere, and then you forgot a guy, or you realize, "No, I really put this guy too low or too high," and you put it out there, and it looks goofy. 1:03:21 So I'm just putting them out position by position this year, and then when I'm really comfortable, they all go in order, and then you can look at it. But I did running ba- running backs, Jeremiah Love et al. Okay. 1:03:30 Pretty much Jeremiah Love, and then, like, all kinds of me complaining. Uh- Yeah... tomorrow I believe is safeties and defensive tackles. Uh, Garrett Newsome's gonna get his own little segment. 1:03:39 Ty Simpson's gonna get his own little segment. I, I'll do Mendoza at some point, but I don't know what to say. What do you say? He's, remember he's the Raiders quarterback. Hey, Raiders have a quarterback. Yeah. 1:03:49 What more- He's in Ve- he's in Vegas today for his visit. Yeah. How do you- Yeah... where do you think that's going? Uh, i- if you're Fernando Mendoza, take him, what, to see Wizard of Oz at The Sphere? 1:03:58 Is that kinda what you do on the visit with him? [laughs] Right. 1:04:01 He- It doesn't strike me, it doesn't strike me as, like, we're gonna go to the Luxor, and we're gonna, like, you know, bet all our money on black for the- No... uh, during the team visit. 1:04:10 [laughs] Like how do you entertain him in Vegas? A- amazing steak. You can get amazing steak and seafood in Vegas, that part of it's there. They should be talking contract. Yeah. 1:04:18 Why, why are they doing anything at this point besides talking contract? Uh, he did a pro day. There's nothing more to see on film with him. 1:04:25 I mean, he played, like, five extra games and won them all, uh, at the end of, uh, uh, regular season, so I don't know what else there is to say to the young man. They should be talking contract at this point. 1:04:35 Maybe that is what's going on. No doubt. So be sure to subscribe to Too Deep Zone. You can check out tomorrow my piece on Between- Yeah... the Hash Marks on Dexter Lawrence's trade request. 1:04:44 Spoke to three or four people inside the league on his value, best fits, what the contract may well end up looking like. You can read about that tomorrow morning. We'll have the- Good... 1:04:52 mailbag on Friday where you can submit your questions to me. I'll pose them to executives. We'll get your answers Friday in the mailbag column, and then top 10 defensive players on Monday. So subscribe- Yeah... 1:05:03 to Between the Hash Marks on Substack. You can check out the Between the Hash Marks podcast on Apple Podcasts. Leave us those five-star ratings and reviews. We read them on the show. You can rip us if you want. 1:05:13 I love how complimentary- Please... these have been, but you can- Yeah... make fun of us. You can blast us. Just put five stars, and we'll read it, and we'll, we'll give you a nice shout-out on the show. Right. 1:05:21 You can tell me I'm insufferable, right? You can, you can at least see some- I'm not [laughs] I'm never living that down, am I? 1:05:28 You, you- How many, how many top-of-the-shelf scotches or espresso martinis do I have to buy you to make up for that? You can suggest that I hold a grudge endlessly, which is also untrue. 1:05:39 Uh, but, but yeah, so the pri- Justin Herbert may s- may say differently there. Justin Herbert and the Herbert hive mi- Right... may, may have a different view of your grudges. R- right, right. 1:05:48 People from 2006 who made, like, one offhand co- comment, it's like, no, you remember that. You remember that. 1:05:53 You're an incredibly petty man, but you can call me an incredibly petty man, but leave us those five-star reviews. They help us. They help build the show. They help build engagement. 1:06:01 It's an attention economy, and we crave your attention. He's Mike Tanier. I'm Matt Lombardo. 1:06:07 Thanks everybody for jumping in, tuning in, listening, watching, and we'll talk to you in two weeks, and maybe the draft will get better by then. Maybe it'll, maybe the draft class is even more exciting. 1:06:16 Jeremiah Smith and Arch Manning will declare l- l- late to save us, save us from this draft class.
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