Transcript 0:00 Welcome on in to another action-packed live extravaganza here on the Between the Hash Marks podcast, recapping a chaotic NFL trade deadline. 0:09 As always, I'm Matt Lombardo, joined by my friend, colleague, mentor, and the purveyor of the Two Deep Zone, Mike Tanier is here. 0:16 A- and Michael, we're doing this podcast a little bit later in the day, because this was one of the more hectic trade deadlines, one of the more potentially impactful trade deadlines that I can remember. 0:26 I can remember Bleacher Report assigning me, "You're the pick trade by trade update guy." They said, "So clear your schedule." 0:34 And I remember sitting there, like with tumbleweeds blowing by, like I, I, I have 10 hours sitting at my desk, and I think it was like one backup lineman got traded. 0:43 When was this when I was doing that, I would've loved to have kept busy, or I'd love to get the clicks and things like that. I'm, this, it's, it's the busiest one I've seen in years. 0:51 Yeah, last year there were 18 trades that went down- Oof... at the deadline. I don't believe that we matched that number today, but I don't remember, thinking back to last year, trades that meant as much. 1:02 I mean, you- Right... we're gonna get into all of it. Sauce Gardner, Quin- uh, Quinnen Williams. 1:07 Yeah, you look at J- Jalen Phillips yesterday, just all of these blockbuster moves reshaping the playoff race on both sides of the bracket in a lot of ways. That's exactly it. 1:16 You know, 18 trades, and you look at them, well, this was the backup edge rusher, and this was this defensive tackle who needed a change of scenery for that backup safety. This was different. This is all pros. 1:26 This was pro bowls. This was all-in moves. So it was exciting. It sure was. Before we get into it, a little bit of housekeeping. If you enjoy the podcast, thank you for joining us on the live- live pod. 1:37 These have become a lot of fun and a highlight of both of our weeks, so we appreciate that. 1:41 If you enjoy Mike Tanier's work, if you enjoy the deep statistical dives, the breakdowns, the in-depth analysis melded in with pop culture and superhero references and dad jokes, subscribe to The Two Deep Zone. 1:52 It- it's mandatory reading. A- and as I say every week, Monday my ritual is drop my daughter off at the bus, my son off at daycare, crack open a cold brew coffee, and j- and read the walkthrough on Monday. 2:05 If you enjoy my in-depth analysis, my insider reporting, and the features that we feature at Between the Hash Marks, subscribe to Between the Hash Marks on Substack. 2:14 And if you enjoy the pod, subscribe in the Apple Podcast Store. Leave us those five-star reviews and ratings. They really do help boost the show. 2:21 You can check us out on my YouTube channel, @mattlombardo975, and of course, follow us on social media. Mike is on Bluesky, @miketanier. You can check me out, @mattlombardonfl on Threads. 2:31 I think we got it covered there, Mike, but those reviews, man, they've been coming in a lot lately. We enjoy them. Yeah. They do help boost the show. They absolutely do. They help other people find us, and that's... 2:40 We need attention. It's an attention economy. Your, uh, your likes, your five-star reviews, they go a long way. By the way, I cannot compete with you in terms of the, the quickness at which you got analysis out. 2:51 It was 4:05 PM, and I got the Matt Lombardo update with scout takes on the Sauce Gardner trade, on the Quinnen Williams tr- trade. All of it right there all ready to go. Yeah, I appreciate that. 3:02 I mean, I kind of took the Mike Tanier BR approach. I, I, I sat down at my desk. I had the two coffees. It was a two-coffee day. 3:11 And you know, when the moves started coming in fast and furious, I w- I was firing off text messages, hoping that I'd get some replies. 3:18 And sure enough, a lot of people were able to step away from their war rooms or, uh- Mm-hmm... for, for the coaches and scouts, they're not necessarily the decision-makers. Right. 3:26 But they did get back to me, and, you know, I'm just blown away by, by what the Jets did. I, I, I like it, I think. Uh, I'm impressed by what the Colts did propping open their window. 3:37 Uh, I, I don't think the Cowboys did enough, 'cause I don't think the Cowboys could have done enough to fix that defense. Those are kind of my 50,000-foot-view takeaways. Uh, how about you? 3:47 Well, we'll, we'll put the Jets aside for a second. 3:49 I guess we'll start with the Cowboys, like, because if you look at th- these trades, which of course are Quinnen Williams, uh, coming in and Logan Wilson coming in, in view of the Micah Parsons trade. 3:59 So they, the, the Cowboys traded away Micah Parsons, got a bunch of draft picks back, and their defense collapsed completely. So they go out. Today, I think Logan Wilson's a very minor trade. 4:09 Williams is a major trade, but they have to give back some of the Parsons draft capital to bring somebody in to solidify a defense that was not that big a problem last year. And I compared it to gamblers in Vegas 4:21 who are playing, playing, and they get a win, then a couple losses, win, win, couple losses, win, loss, loss, loss, loss, win. And they think they're winning because they've been drinking the whole time. 4:28 That's the Cowboys. They're slipping away a little at a time, but they are getting some of these jackpots back. And because they don't have, they, they have the, uh, the memory of a goldfish, 4:38 they don't realize that all of this activity and the bells and whistles, they're actually falling a lot, uh, behind a little bit as they go. For sure, and I look at the Quinnen Williams trade, that, that's the biggie. 4:48 That's the one- Mm-hmm... that if it's going to move the needle even a little bit, it, you have to make it. And you, you talk about Jerry Jones, when they traded away Micah Parsons, there were two things. 4:58 One, I've had a couple of different executives talk to me over the past three weeks that they expected the Cowboys to use some of that draft capital to bring in defensive help- Right... 5:06 because that's what Jones said he wanted to do. But the goal was, quote-unquote, "fixing the run defense." They ranked, like, 31st in the league against the run after last night against the- Yeah... Arizona Cardinals. 5:16 So you bring in one of the premier run stuffers in the league in Quinnen Williams. I think the Logan Wilson piece helps because- Yeah... he, he's a, he's a competent middle linebacker. He's a v- Yeah... 5:27 veteran leadership type of a voice. But the two of them together, you're making incremental moves to get better. 5:33 As one scout told me today, quote, "I don't even think that Quinnen's enough to help that raggedy-ass defense- [laughs]... but he's a piece for sure. Their problem is they don't have a pass rush, and both- Mm-hmm... 5:43 of their cornerbacks are terrible," unquote. Mm-hmm. Hey, what happened to the pass rush? Where did that go? Yeah, well, I, I cannot imagine. I can't think about it, but you- you're right, and I think he's right. 5:53 And Logan Wilson's an upgrade because Kenneth Murray misses tackles left and right. That's why he's been bouncing around the league for years. 5:58 They have this other kid, Jamar James, I think he's a rookie, and he's been, he, he just misses assignments left and right. Logan Wilson improves that, but you're talking about going from 31st to 22nd?Yeah. 6:10 And that's a, I mean, that's a, that's a big bump. Now what does it do? 6:13 Eagles fans listening, it's like, well, the, you know, if, if the Eagles face that defense as it was, Saquon will, in a rematch, Saquon's gonna run for 250 yards. 6:22 So now you have this team that could possibly, you know, get after you a little better. But does this make the Cowboys a playoff team after Monday night? I don't think so. It doesn't make them a Super Bowl contender. 6:31 It is an older player that they got back, a- an older player than Micah Parsons, that they got back with all this draft capital, and it's, like, a good move to salvage the dignity of the season, but not a good move. 6:45 The- No. I, I think they'll be kinda better when they get, come off of the bye week. I think the defense will, if not turn a corner, t- take a step or two, especially against the run. 6:55 But I think the Quinnen Williams trade is more one that you make with sights set on 2026, 2027. You, you have a foundational piece- Mm-hmm... along your defensive line. 7:05 You look to invest the kind of resources that you did this past off-season on, on defense. They went out, they get George Pickens at wide receiver, they drafted pretty well on offense. 7:14 It, it's time now to fix the defense. Quinnen Williams is that first big fix. It, it's, it's weird, 'cause when you start saying 20, 26, 2027, you know, George Pickens is not on a long-term contract. True. Right. 7:25 So there's not a logical thing. Well, we signed Pickens, a young player, to a four-year deal or whatever. He's on a one-year deal. They're gonna turn around and have a Micah situation 7:34 with George Pickens, who's gonna be a smell-you-later diva receiver if they don't get that settled. So there's not rhyme nor reason to it. 7:41 It, and, and again, it's a, it's an older player, so it improves them now, it stabilizes the situation now, where I'm not looking at the rest of the Cowboys season saying, "There's three wins on here," or whatever. 7:51 The, you know. The, the, this is a team now, week in and week out, it won't be so bad on defense that you're saying, "Oh, you know, the, the Broncos are gonna smoke them. 8:00 The, the [laughs] the, the Panthers are gonna smoke them," 'cause that's where they were right now. It's a team that goes from giving up 28 and a half points per game to maybe- Yep... they give up 23 or 24. Yeah. 8:10 And maybe it makes a difference, maybe it doesn't. There, there's no Super Bowl window though to be had this year, despite how good Dak Prescott has been, despite the fact that- Yeah... 8:19 up until last night, Prescott was in the MVP conversation. 8:23 There is a Super Bowl conversation to be had this year, and maybe next, in Indianapolis, after they go and get Sauce Gardner, one of the premier lockdown cornerbacks in the league when he's at his best, a walking penalty flag when he's at his worst. 8:36 [laughs] But, but this was a bold move made with the, the designs of we're 7-2. Mm-hmm. We believe in Daniel Jones. We have the pieces on offense around Daniel Jones. 8:48 We need this defense not to let what happen on Sunday defensively happen- Mm... against the Pittsburgh Steelers. Sauce Gardner's on a four-year contract extension, so he's ours for the long term. Yeah. 8:59 We're taking multiple bites of the Super Bowl apple. We give away a Donny Mitchell and two first-round picks. Who cares? 9:05 We're looking at Josh Allen, Patrick Mahomes, Lamar Jackson, Zay Flowers, and, uh, Xavier Worthy in a postseason situation. Mm-hmm. We need to load up, and they did. I love it from a Colts perspective. Right. 9:18 I, I think of Sauce as more as the Rocky Rice eraser in those, 'cause he takes on the bigger dude. He's better aga- against those guys, 'cause he's a bigger corner. But there's a couple elements to this. 9:27 One is, if you look at Sauce Gardner this season and you pull up the PFF and everything, remember, he, you have to face CeeDee Lamb. You're the one guy out there covering CeeDee Lamb in that game. 9:37 You're the one guy covering... I, now I'm drawing a blank. He, he was f- covering Tyreek. Yeah. You're s- the 6'3" guy, but you have to cover Tyreek 'cause we really don't have any other options. 9:47 And oh, you're getting penalty flags 'cause you're trying to hold Tyreek when he gets past you. On a better team... Oh, and you have to do it for, like, 75 snaps, 'cause the offense is gonna go three and out every time. 9:55 So you're gonna ha- you're gon- every mistake is gonna get magnified. Uh, Sauce is not in that situation anymore. Talk about a change of scenery guy. He's incredibly young. You know, people... 10:05 He is, he is a first-round pick. He's a locked-down first-round pick. So you kinda traded one first-round pick to get this guy. 10:12 And for, for the Colts now, you start talking about c- Super Bowl windows, I thought about this. For a team like the Colts, as mediocre as they've been since even the Andrew Luck days. Yeah. So like, like 10, 15 years. 10:25 Getting to the AFC Championship game would feel like a huge success. Huge success. For the org... Yeah, for the organization, for the new owner, for the fans. Getting out of that rut. So we talk about Super Bowl window. 10:36 In the AFC, hey, guess what? We're just gonna be talking about Patrick Mahomes and, and Josh Allen, and then if Lamar comes back. And like, whoever else is in there, you're always the third option. 10:45 Being the third option is a win for the Colts right now. That, they're not the Ravens, where it's Super Bowl or bust. They're not the Lions, where it's Super Bowl or bust. 10:52 They can make a move like this, and it's like, "Oh, you know what? We improved when we went out there and we beat, you know, we beat the Steelers in the playoffs. 10:58 We beat the, you know, we stunned whoever in the playoffs, then we lost to the Bills," whatever. That's not a bad season for them. And then they can still build 'cause Sauce is young. Sauce is young. 11:08 You trade two first-round picks, though. You're thinking, "We can catch Patrick Mahomes on the kinda day-" Yeah... "that he had against-" Yes... "the Bills on Sunday. We can catch-" Right... 11:18 "Josh Allen on a day where Zaire Franklin runs wild in the backfield the way that d, uh, Joey Bosa just did for the- Right... the, the Buffalo Bills against the, the Chiefs." 11:28 And you look at that secondary now, Kenny Moore's a standout player. And, and you have a- Yeah... a legitimate cornerback duo now with Kenny Moore and Sauce Gardner. They're gonna get Charvarius Ward back at some point. 11:39 Right. You think about Zaire Franklin up front, the defensive line, I think if there is a weak link it might be that. But you're looking at a team now that can run the ball really effectively with Jonathan Taylor. Mm. 11:49 If they get Daniel Jones somewhere between the first seven games and the calamity i- in Pittsburgh- Yep... y- you have a dominant quarterback. 11:57 You have, uh, Michael Pittman Jr., you have Alec Pierce, you have Tyler Warren. You have the pieces. Y- and, and, and you're in a manageable division that- Right... 12:07 y- the AFC Championship game might be the expectation for two years. Not, not, "Hey, we can get there," it might be the expectation. Or, and the idea that you can make sure that you make it go through there.Okay? 12:17 Because we have an easier schedule, because we might have an easier division, although they've got some tough division games coming up. You know, the Texans and Jaguars aren't pushovers. 12:25 But we can make it so, okay, you gotta come in here into our house, uh, Patrick Mahomes, Josh Allen, and Creed Shiraz. And that's, that's kinda what I'm saying. 12:32 'Cause if you really power scale it, we'd all be like, well, even with the power scaling, adding Sauce and all, they would still behi- be- the Colts would be behind these teams in our, in our, you know, head canon of who's great. 12:43 So what does that mean? Give up? 12:44 Oh, you're, you're never gonna, you're never gonna m- mess with those teams, so wait 18 years until Patrick Mahomes and Josh Allen, Lamar Jack- You can't do that, so you have to take the bigger, bolder, risk move. 12:54 So I understand the Colts doing this. Now, you sounded like you were excited about the Jets. I, I, I can see the vision. I can see the vision for the Jets, and I was talking to a scout about this- Mm-hmm... 13:07 after the Sauce Gardner trade, and he brought up a point that I hadn't really rationalized in my own mind at that point. 13:14 But when you get the two first-round picks back, and you w- later got a third from the Quinnen Williams- Yeah... trade with the Dallas Cowboys, you now have three first-round picks. 13:24 You have five first-round picks total over the next two years, as long as you get the quarterback, which is the big if, and it's something that franchise has been able to do once ever with Joe Namath, right? 13:36 So, so, so that means that you- Before I was born. Before I was born. But go on, go on. So, so the quarterback situation has to get right for the first time ever. 13:45 But when you start to think about it, w- the scout made a great point that Sauce Gardner, eh, this team isn't gonna be good for two or three years. That's just the reality of it. 13:53 So you get the draft capital now, and by the time the team was gonna be good again, Sauce Gardner's on the back end of that deal, so you're looking at the back end of the Sauce Gardner extension. 14:04 So, uh, to me, it, it's almost like hitting the reset button completely, and I think that Moogey at least has some sort of plan. 14:12 If they're gonna bring Aaron Glenn back, I think that Aaron Glenn, now it's going to be his type of players, not inherited players. 14:19 But it just seems like this is, for once, a franchise that chased its own tail by chasing Aaron Rodgers, tried to get the flavor of the week at quarterback, tried to patchwork it together with Justin Fields. 14:30 You're now taking the three to five-year view rather than, "Oh, we're okay. Let's go get this fading quarterback, and he'll make us better than okay." This is, this is not the reset button. 14:41 This is the give up on life button. 14:43 You're on November 4th, and you're looking at Sauce Gardner, a 24-year-old All-Pro cornerback and say, "Well, we're never gonna be able to build a team around him, so let's just get rid of him." 14:51 That is a give up on life move. That is a... And Aaron Glenn knows he will not be there to see most of these picks taken, and Moogey is banking that he will be, so it's a job preservation thing. 15:01 You're talking about five first-round picks in two years. I'm gonna name five names for you right now. They are Zach Wilson, Elijah Vera-Tucker, Jermaine Johnson, Garrett Williams, and Sauce Gardner. 15:13 You know who they were. The five first-round picks of 2021, 2022. Not 1964 and '65 with Joe Namath. Of post-COVID, of the time that good teams have drafted their core, and where are these guys right now? 15:30 Zach Wilson, obviously a bust, gone already. Elijah Vera-Tucker, he's on their line. Sauce Gardner is now gone, and they were shopping Jermaine Johnson. 15:38 This is a vicious cycle, and we're gonna say, "That's okay, 'cause we'll be good in 2027." I don't know how a Jets fan does it. I know how Jets fans do it. Because they kinda buy into this, and they love mock drafts, 15:49 and they love college football Saturday, and they love getting an A+ on the draft report card, 'cause they've been conditioned that that's, that's the thing now. This is desperate. This is... 15:59 The one thing I'll say about it is they got really good capital back. Yes. If you're gonna fire sale these guys, then fire sale for a lot. But this is an uncompetitive, this is an uncompetitive team now. It is. It is. 16:11 It's a- But they were, they were, they were one and seven anyway, so how competitive were you? There was no window- I-... whatsoever this year. 16:17 But the idea that you ca- No, there's no window this year, but you can turn to a young star like, uh, like Sauce Gardner, say, "We are going to be building. This is gonna go on." 16:25 Maybe you trade Williams 'cause he's older, and you say, "Don't worry, the help is gonna be coming. But in the meantime, we are coming off a victory. 16:31 We showed proof of concept that we can get three or four wins down the stretch, turn this around, trust me." Out the window. Out the window. And I, I go through and I name these names. 16:40 Mekhi Becton, the 11th overall pick, turned into a good player with the Eagles, g- good player with the Chargers. They got rid of him as fast as they could with the New York Jets. 16:49 Darnold, okay, maybe it was never gonna work out for them in New York. Different guy now. They weren't able to support it. Jamal Adams, okay? They got rid of him as fast as they could. 16:57 Yeah, it didn't work out other teams. The, these first-round picks just vanish, and they either wind up being stars elsewhere or it's like, well, they were broken forever because of the Jets. This is the vicious cycle. 17:11 This was a chance to get out of it and say, "Look, we're gonna, we're gonna nurture Sauce Gardner and Garrett Wilson." And they said, "Nah, let's, let's just push the plunger again." 17:19 I, I, I hate it, and the only reason I don't hate it is it's the Jets. It's the Jets being the Jets. I don't care. And, and it's comedic relief, uh, for the foreseeable future. But I, I- [laughs]... 17:27 believe it was Matt Miller of ESPN, uh, posted on Threads that the 2026 draft might be the deepest, we hear this every year, but it might be the deepest draft ever. A- and if you have three first-round picks- That's-... 17:40 uh, and you get three bites of the apple, I, I can kind of see the rationale that you're tearing it down, you're getting rid of the contract. You shouldn't... 17:49 I- i- if you're gonna do this, you shouldn't have signed him anyway, right? Like [laughs] They signed him three months ago. That's the level of dysfunction we're talking about. They signed him three months ago. 17:57 Yeah, in August. Right. Yes. Right. Right. 18:00 The only saving grace is it was mostly salary, not bonus, otherwise they'd be eating so much cap space at this point that it's almost like, well, let's just add it to the Aaron Rodgers cap space that we're still eating. 18:10 Let's add some Sauce Gardner cap space to it on top. They're not doing that, but yeah. Uh, okay, next year's draft is loaded. Got it. Check. Next year's draft is loaded. Okay [laughs] Like-[laughs] 18:22 At least there's one team that's not looking to next year. Yeah. It's the Seahawk- the Seahawks. Yeah. 18:27 Because, you know, they're one of those teams that you look up every week and they're just demolishing people, and they did it again on Sunday night. The Jaden Daniels injury, you put that up on a shelf. 18:37 That's another conversation for another day. Right. Yeah. But they, they just... They, they blew the doors off the Commanders in their building. Jaxon Smith-Njigba went off. 18:46 My guy, Elijah Arroyo, had an insane game, his first touchdown, uh, in Washington. Um, y- Jaxon Smith-Njigba, big g- big game. They ran wild. Right. Darnold ran wild. And they go out today, and they get Rashid Shaheed. 19:01 Speed. It's speed, speed, speed- Speed, speed, speed... with Jaxon Smith-Njigba on the other side, and- Mm-hmm... 19:07 it just looks like if we wanna talk about the Colts propping up some sort of Super Bowl window, you know- Yeah... 19:13 the, the Seahawks have just decided, "We're throwing every last chip at the table going all in this year around Sam Darnold," and they have the pieces too. Strangling, stifling defense- Yeah... 19:23 aggressive style on that side of the ball, talented wide receiver, a quarterback who continues to punch so far above his head maybe we have to think- [laughs]... that's where his head is now. Yeah, yeah. 19:32 They just look like after this move, that they're ready to go. And it wasn't that expensive a move. No, it was a- It-... fourth-round pick and a sixth-round pick. Right. 19:41 Uh, be- because, I mean, it's a fire sale in New Orleans. They, they have to be motivated sellers, and because Shaheed is a very much a one-dimensional guy. 19:49 The thing is that's the one dimension that you look at this team and you say, "Okay, Smith-Njigba is usually getting, working the middle of the field a little bit more," and then they've got these tight ends, and they've got this running game. 19:59 They don't have absolute total verticality. Now, Cooper Kupp is not verticality. 20:03 Here's this guy, and it, it could be one of those things where at the end of the season it's like, well, Rashid Shaheed had, well, you know, for the Seahawks, you know, 22 receptions and four touchdowns, and did it really make a difference? 20:17 And then you'll watch the replays, and the safety is so far back that JSB is, like, catching, like, 14 passes this game and is good synergy among the o- the offensive, um, talent. 20:27 So all the reasons you said, the fact that they're in position to make, uh, this kind of run, the fact that they're tops in DVOA right now. Like D- DVOA, the metrics say they're really good. 20:37 He adds value as a kickoff returner. I think that's it too. This was my favorite move of the deadline by far. Yeah, I think it's a great- By far... I, I think it's a great one, and you look at the production. 20:46 It's down a little bit in New Orleans, but how could it not be catching passes from, you know, Spencer Rattler- Right... and, and Tyler Shuck and, and just a dysfunctional offense. Yeah. 20:54 But he played for Clint Kubiak last year in New Orleans. Yes. Averaged 17 and a half yards per reception. 17 and a half yards per reception. A- and, and- Yeah... 21:02 you, you bring up the point, you have two dynamic tight ends in Barner and Arroyo. You have Jaxon Smith-Njigba. If you have a guy- Mm-hmm... who can take the top off, you're gonna- Yeah... 21:11 get a couple nine routes, as you said, but there's- Yeah... so much space for everybody else, and for the running game. And all of a- Right... 21:17 sudden, the, the ghosts that Sam Darnold was seeing because of all the extra pressure and the blitzing, it's a lot tougher to blitz when you gotta worry about, you know, a guy like Shaheed on a hot route. Yeah. 21:29 And I was really... I, I was writing up a thing, and I'm just focusing on how the Commanders tried to cover JSB, and they're doubling him in a variety of different ways. 21:39 And if you look at the touchdowns of all the other guys, Horton, uh, I think Arroyo's touchdown, uh, maybe not so much that other kid who caught one. 21:46 But you'll see the safety just coming up on JSB, just coming up on him to try, and then there's a throw over the top, okay? And that's consistent. 21:55 On one of the touchdowns it's a double coverage bracketing him, and then somebody gets open in the corner. Now you throw Shaheed into this. Yeah. And it's like they'll do, they'll put a double move in. 22:03 They'll put, like, a po- po- post corner or something like that so that safety's like, "Ah, okay, I'm here. Gonna go that way." And Darnold's been hitting those deep balls. So Darnold has a good deep arm. 22:12 He has incredible statistics this year. He always had the arm. That was never like, oh, the, the issue. This, this could be, this, that's the value-added move that they made. 22:22 Eagles made a pretty good value-added move I think in, in Jalen Phillips. Um, but, like, I think Shaheed is more a boost to the Seahawks than Phillips is to the Eagles. 22:31 He, he's a force multiplier for what they do in Seattle. Yes. A- and it's- Yeah... 22:35 it's remarkable to me because if we woke up Monday morning after watching what the Seahawks did, my, my takeaway is this is a legitimate three-horse race in the NFC West. 22:45 The, the Seahawks might be the best team, but you still gotta contend- Yeah... with the Rams and with- Yeah... Stafford and, and Nakua and Jared Verse on defense. Right. 22:52 You look at San Francisco, Christian McCaffrey just runs wild every single week. 200 ya- yards from scrimmage every single week. Doesn't matter if it's- Right... Brock Purdy or Mac Jones. 23:01 Doesn't matter who the wide receiver is, they just continue to win. You get Shaheed. 23:06 The way that they won, like, you need to start kinda thinking about, okay, i- is it Philadelphia and Seattle in the race for home field in the NFC title game? Right. 23:15 Well, what's tricky about the home field is because that division has those three powerhouses. Yes. Okay? 23:22 And the NFC North is not, nothing's going to be easy for the Packers or the Lions, and the Vikings are still in the mix somewhere. Okay? And for the Eagles, things were getting easier. 23:30 Okay, the Cowboys, uh, you know, now they're a little more of a threat than they might have been, uh, you know, 24 hours ago. Uh, but you see the Commanders coming up. 23:38 So the Eagles have this opportunity, Buccaneers have this opportunity too, we'll see what happens as they move forward, to say you don't have to be the best team to get... 23:48 It, it might, you, it probably won't be the best team who gets that first round bye, and that's gonna be something worth fighting for. For, yep. And let's move to the team you mentioned, the Philadelphia Eagles. 23:57 Uh, th- this was another Howie Roseman special at the deadline. You talk about- Yeah... adding the two cornerbacks. You get Michael Carter from the Jets last week. 24:05 You get, uh, in, in a Saturday afternoon trade, you get the health wild card in Jaire Alexander. [laughs] Maybe he's healthy enough for a playoff game when you need him to be healthy. Right. 24:14 But the big move a- and the move that I thought going into today before the Sauce Gardner chaos, the move that I thought was gonna be the most impactful was the Eagles trading for Jalen Phillips. 24:25 Not just because- Yeah... you get Jalen Phillips, who in eight games in his one season with V- Ka- Fangio had six and a half sacks. 24:32 Not just because now there's a lot less pressure on Brandon Graham to be a meaningful contributor other than a, "Hey, we, we need a fresh body on second and 18. Go out there and get after the quarterback." Mm. 24:43 You have a legitimate edge rusher now for a defense that couldn't generate pressure at all. Right, right. 24:49 But more than that-Roseman jumped the market because I know for a fact the Cowboys were sniffing around that market. Okay. 24:55 I know that the 49ers were making phone calls to get an edge rusher, specifically, uh, Hendrickson, who wound up not getting moved. Okay. 25:02 And the Lions wound up sitting it out or not being able to make a trade, but the Eagles got the edge rusher when three legitimate contenders in the NFC either sat out or struck out of that market. Right, right. 25:15 So the Cowboys go in a different direction, whatever. The Eagles get the piece they need. Phillips, you watch Thursday Night's game, and you're, like, laughing at the Dolphins, and we're laughing at the Dolphins. 25:23 Phillips and Chubb were still playing. They were still playing very hard. They were getting pressure. 25:27 They were chasing Lamar as best one can chase Lamar, and you could tell, like, these are two guys who are like, "We are edge rushers. The market for us is always good at the trade deadline. 25:36 Contenders know they can plug and play with us." And so, you know, Phillips has to be happy with that. He's going to be a very useful piece in there, and you're right. You're denying these other teams. 25:44 The Lions astound me, by the way, where we're getting this bad health news about the, about Decker, about Sewell, about Mahogany on the offensive line. 25:52 And it's like, well, you c- you know, adding an offensive line, but I know the Chargers did it, but that's not what you do at the deadline. You're gonna sit on your hands completely? 25:59 You're not gonna turn around and say, "What can we add to our defense if our offense starts to fall off a little bit?" And once again, the Lions said, "No, thanks." 26:07 Th- like, they had not even a murmur that they were gonna be making a move for some of these guys, but it's gonna be Hutchinson. Th- there's these stats. 26:13 The stat guys are like, "Boy, Aidan Hutchinson's pass rush win rate where he beats his, his, uh, blocker is, like, the highest in the NFL, and yet, like, his sack and pressure rate- rates are low. I wonder why that is." 26:26 It's like, because you can sidestep him when there's no one else there, guys. Right. It's because, yeah, he, he... Oh, Hutchinson's going this way, Scott. No, nobo- nobody, nobody's chasing- [laughs]... 26:34 the quarterback into Hutchinson's arms by the pressure- Right... that's being applied by Hutchinson's side. There's this- Right... 26:39 a- and may- maybe earned and maybe rightful confidence in Brad Holmes and his ability to draft, that they're so- Right... 26:46 terrified to relinquish draft capital because they drafted Aidan Hutchinson, because they drafted Jahmyr Gibbs, because they drafted Amon-Ra St. Brown, and Penei Sewell, and all of these guys, and on- Yeah... 26:57 and on and on, that they don't want to spend draft capital to bring in a high-priced edge rusher. But we saw last year, when the, when the wheels fall off from a health perspective, or you lose- Yeah... Aidan Hutchinson, 27:09 th- th- there's not a Za- Za- Zadarius Smith that you can shake a tree, and Zadarius Smith falls out of the pass rush tree- [laughs]... this time around. Right? It's just- Ab-... 27:16 it's not that kind of market right now, and you had the opportunity with Bradley Chubb potentially being shopped. Yeah. The Jets were inclined to trade, um, Jermaine Johnson, but that didn't happen. 27:29 They could have- But-... traded for Quincy Williams, the other Williams brother. None of that happened The Titans kid, uh, Dre'Mont Jones. Dre'Mont Jones goes to Baltimore. Winds up going to the Ravens. 27:38 Yeah, goes to- Right... Baltimore, a- and you're, you're banking on the ability to draft Jack Sawyer. You're, you're, you're banking on the ability to draft- Yeah... 27:46 uh, you know, all of these guys on both sides of the ball, Branch the safety, eventually being good enough for you to win a Super Bowl, and it might be, and it might be this year. But I think that- Okay... 27:58 when you have the core in place that they have, you owe it to yourself, and you owe it to the roster to go get the edge rusher when the edge rusher's available. 28:05 I can't imagine looking at the 2023 and 2024 Lions seasons and seeing how good those teams were, and it's like, "Oh, we went to the NFC Championship game, and we almost beat the 49ers. 28:15 Oh, we fell a little short the following year, but during the regular season, we're blowing everybody's door off." 28:19 This year, we're losing to the Vikings in the cr- in the second year quarterback's third start of his career. We're losing to them. We're, we're losing, obviously, to the Chiefs. We lose to the Packers in the beginning. 28:28 This is fine. No, it's not fine. You're going the wrong way. You are clearly going the wrong way. 28:34 This idea that slow, slow and steady is going to win the k- the, the race is not doing it for you, and n- no one is asking, n- no, again, no one is asking for, like, a Sauce Gardner trade. You don't need that. 28:44 I was looking, the number two guy in their press rush is this kid Al-Muhammad, and, like, he's fine, but imagine if you replaced him with, uh, Al-Qadim Muhammad's his name. Okay. Dre'Mont Jones from the Titans, 28:58 affordable acquisition, big 285, 80 pounds, thumper, kind of a run defender who can get to the quarterback. That's the anvil for Hutchinson's hammer. It's done. It's done. And yeah, and, and you, and you- Yeah... 29:10 probably buy yourself a win with that. Keon White, uh- Yeah... goes to San Francisco before the deadline. That's right. Could've been a real, uh, one of the kind of minor moves that you make- Right... to add depth. 29:20 Uh, Arnold Ebiketie- Right... wound up not being moved, even though I know that he wanted out from Atlanta. Uh- Right... would've been the kind of move that's a, a guy capable of five to six sacks in the right rotation. 29:30 Maybe more- Right... than that with Hutchinson on the other side. A- and you- Right... sit on your hands. It, it was Jack Campbell, not Jack Sawyer, by the way. I get my Iowa, uh, linebackers- [laughs]... 29:38 a little, little bit, my Big Ten linebackers a little bit m- mixed up there. Um, but- Th- they sound like, they sound the same guy. They do. One, one's in Pittsburgh, and one's in Detroit. G- g- Big Ten country. 29:47 Go figure. Right. One's Iowa, one was Ohio State. Ohio State, yes. [laughs] Right. Right. But, but, you know, the, we have about 50 people in the room. 29:55 We, if you have a surprise trade that got made or didn't get made, let us know. Um, just back to the Jets real quick, were you surprised that they didn't come off their third round asking price for Breece Hall? 30:04 Because, um, Diana Russini reported that the Chiefs were interested but not for the third round pick. If you're going to trade, in my opinion here, Quinnen Williams and Sauce Gardner, 30:16 I, I, I don't know why the line of demarcation was a fourth versus- Right... a third for Breece Hall when you're tearing it down to the studs. 30:22 Right, and when Breece Hall is tweeting, like, sadness emojis and things like that, where he's almost begging for a release at that point, I don't know. 30:30 So then that's the thing, where it gets down to how coherent is the thinking here where they say, "Well, we're done now. We need Breece Hall to stay competitive"? No, that doesn't make any sense at all. 30:39 [laughs] The running back is not going to keep you competitive. Maybe you get a fourth or fifth round to get a disgruntled guy out of there, and then you get your undrafted rookie and let him run around out there. 30:47 So that doesn't, that doesn't particularly make a lot of sense to me.Was there a trade for you... 30:52 I, I know you said that your favorite move was the Ra- Rashid S- uh, Shahid trade, but over the week, the last week, was there a trade that went down that was your favorite or most surprising so far? 31:03 I was very happy with the Phillips trade, you know, for, from the Eagles, 'cause getting Alexander, I was like, "Are you kidding me? 31:08 We're, we're, we're gonna get this guy so he can burn another 12 sick days or whatever it is he does every time he's on, on the team." Uh, late in it, it was interesting, so I've written up a bunch of things. 31:17 The Chargers lost Joe Alt again to another injury, and they lost Bobby Hart, former Giant, who was backing up Alt or was backing up the guy who backed up Alt. It was very confusing at this point. 31:29 They went and they got Trevor Penning from that fire sale down in New Orleans. Um, and I, I don't... Penning's not this phenomenal player. Uh, he was moved from left tackle to right tackle to guard. 31:39 We know what that means in terms of the career of a guy. They went out and got a body, and they got a very aggressive body. They got, like, a tone-setter type guy for all of his talents and limitations. 31:48 Like, that's a smart move, so I'm looking at the Chargers and saying, "Well, they can't lose a season at this point." You talk about a team that, like, "Oh, we lost the season. 31:56 We made the playoffs, we got beat in the playoffs, lost the play- playoffs." They can't do that again, so I thought that was a smart little move to get a guy. And at least the Saints... 32:05 I don't wanna get s- I'm not gonna get into the Saints right now. The Saints were a different conversation, so we're, we're not gonna do this. Eh, all, all the young guys got moved. All the young guys got moved. 32:15 The old guys are still there. All the expensive guys are, all the expensive guys are still there. They got the, the cap problems are still there. The, the cheap dudes, cheap dudes- Yeah... 32:22 that you wanna toss in the, the sale bin. Right. I, I think my favorite move was the Dre'Mon Jones move- Ooh, yeah... because it, it, it signaled that we, we were not dead, that, that some idiot sportswriter- Yeah... 32:32 might have wrote us off at 0 and 3 and, you know, said that that was the end of the end. But- Right... Lamar, Lamar gets back. You, you, you put that win together in Miami. You kinda look at the rest of the schedule. 32:44 You have the most favorable schedule in the AFC North. You're still banged up a little bit on defense, but you went and got a thumper- Yes... up front. You got an edge rusher that could close the gap a little bit. 32:55 A- and I just... I, I love the mentality of it isn't over till it's over, and we're gonna- Right... go get the kinda piece that we need. Right, and he's a, a scheme fit there. 33:02 He replaces Oweh, Adafe Oweh, who was with them earlier, and I th- I believe he was traded at the beginning of the year. 33:08 So Ravens have not given up, and they shouldn't give up right now, 'cause if you look at that race, there are teams in the AFC that could fall off, and they've got some very easy winnable games ahead of them. 33:17 Mike, what do we got coming up on the, uh, Two Deep Zone? A giant mid-season review, some trade deadline information, some jokes, some stat analysis. I gotta update. 33:27 I don't know, I don't know if I wanna even update it on this Kyler Murray and the Cardinals kept shopping specialists until they found one that both sides said, "Oh, you've gotta sit out." 33:36 And both sides were like, "Oh, he's gotta sit out. Thank you." They, they, like, like, they, they went, they went to the, the marijuana prescription doctor, you know? 33:43 And like, like, "Please, give us a prescription that le- that means he's gotta sit out." I'm not even doing that right now, but all the news, all the gossip, and a lot of the trades, I've got that coming. 33:53 You've got something in my inbox right now, but what else do we have? 33:56 Yeah, the, the inbox right now is the breakdown of the five or six most impactful trades that were made at the deadline, uh, with insights from executives, coaches, and scouts on those moves and, and the impact moving forward from here. 34:09 Uh, also gonna work on something a little bit deeper on the Sauce Gardner trade from both sides, the Jets' perspective, how he fits in Indianapolis, how much this closes the gap on the Chiefs, Bills, and Ravens. 34:21 Um, but probably won't be out tomorrow, but probably by weekend. And then Friday, uh, the big mail bag. People can ask their- Yeah... 34:27 questions, and I'll reach out to agents, former players, scouts, coaches, and execs to get their thoughts on the biggest storylines across the NFL. 34:35 I love to hear about the Sauce thing, so I'm, I'm waiting to hear this other shoe in terms of his with the program-ness or, you know, attitude or something like that. I'm curious if anything shakes loose on that. 34:47 A, a tradition unlike any other, though, before we get out of here, Mike, your circle it game for the upcoming week. What have you got? Oh, I didn't pick one yet. Your... Yeah, I didn't pick one yet. 34:55 Sorry, I'm a little off balance here. Mine was- I can, I can give you mine first. Yes. I'll give you mine first, give you a chance to ruminate and, and debate and decide- Yeah... over at Two, Two Deep Zone headquarters. 35:04 Uh, I, I'm going Patriots and Buccaneers. Good one. The game's in Tampa. It's 1:00. Probably gonna be humid. It, it, it's not humid up here in the northeast. 35:13 Tough place to go this time of year, and I kinda believe the Patriots and the Buccaneers are the same team. Let's just be real about this. What? What? They're, they're the same- No. They're the same team. 35:23 They're the opposite teams. Dynamic quarterback, good wide receivers. Defenses are pretty good and physical, same sort of mentality. I, I, I kind of wanna see how this plays out. 35:35 I wanna see how it plays out, but I'm just gonna let that... They're, they're the opposite team. They're the opposite teams. 35:39 A team that has been in the playoffs every year for, like, the last six years and everything versus this team that just popped up. Veteran quarterback versus, "Oh, here, here's the new hotness," okay? 35:50 Buccaneers have faced some tough opponents this year, so they faced some tough tasks. Patriots- Yeah... they have one Bills game, and then everything is Mi- Middle Tennessee State. 35:57 I'm gonna go with the rematch between the 49ers and the Rams, okay? The Rams goofed up on field goals and, and dumb mistakes against the most depleted 49ers team a couple of weeks ago on a Thursday night. 36:10 Now those Niners are a little less depleted. They'll be close to the full strength. The Rams are playing outstanding football. This is gonna help us figure out some of that complicated NFC West balance of power. 36:21 It's gonna be interesting, and I s- I, I'm really fascinated to see what the Seahawks look like with the speed infused into their offense. And they're not, uh, not gonna get much of a look of it against the Cardinals. 36:31 Right. Uh, but, but it is gonna be interesting to see how that race, uh, shapes up. But, uh, a bunch of people in the room. Uh, Tyler Dunne, good friend of the program. Right. 36:40 Tyler Dunne checks in, "I want Tanya lining up at running back for the Jets." He wants me lining up at running back for the Jets? I'm more of a Chargers running back, 'cause they like the big, the big guys. 36:52 So I'm like the, like, Kamari Vidal type of guy. So you put these, like, you put two tight ends, or, or put me in the, uh, Arthur Smith offense. 36:58 It'll be Donell Washington, the third string lineman that they put in out there, Jo- uh, Jonnu Smith, six, uh, whatever, and I'll just run off tackle over and over again. I am ready for it. 37:09 He's Mike Tanya, follow him on Blue Sky, @miketanya. Make sure you subscribe to the Two Deep Zone on Substack. You can subscribe to the Between the Hash Marks podcast on Apple Podcasts. 37:19 Leave us a five-star rating and review. We will read every five-star rating and review on the show. Whatever you write, we will read it. Think Ron Burgundy in Anchorman. It, it's Lombardo and Tanya podcast, man. 37:31 We will read whatever you write if it's a five-star review on Apple. You can follow me on my YouTube channel, @mattlombardo975. Just over 300,000 lifetime views on the YouTube channel. Good. 37:44 Appreciate everybody checking in there. Subscribe to Between the Hash Marks on Substack. You can follow me on Threads, @mattlombardonfl. 37:51 Uh, Mike, any parting shots, parting thoughts, uh, la- last words, uh, running back for the Arthur Smith-led Pittsburgh Steelers? 38:00 [laughs] No, although I realize, you know, I'm the right age group to be on that offense, so I think it do- does work out. But that's it. No parting shots from me. He's Mike Tanya. 38:11 Thanks, everybody, for checking in on the live podcast. We'll be back next week on the Between the Hash Marks podcast. Enjoy the games on Sunday. Enjoy the week. We'll talk to you next week
