Transcript 0:00 [upbeat rock music] All right, all right. Welcome back into the Between the Hash Marks podcast. 0:08 I'm Matt Lombardo, joined, as always, by my friend, colleague, mentor, the purveyor of the Too Deep Zone, home of the now world-renowned Too Deep 96, Mike Tanier joins me, as always. Michael, how are you today? 0:21 I'm doing great. Greetings from not the NFL, uh, spring meetings. Um, neither of us are there. Have you ever gone? I've never gone. I was supposed to go the COVID year. 0:30 The, the hotel was booked in the shadow of The Breakers in West Palm Beach- Oh... and then COVID hit, and that was the end of that. There was no meeting. There was no trip. 0:40 There were no Marriott points deposited into my account, which is all I would've really cared about. No, I'm only kidding. It sounds like a great event with all kinds of information. 0:49 And today, Mike, it's a bit of tush push palooza coming out of Fort Lauderdale. It's, it's tush push, uh, uh, interruptus, um- Yes... because we don't have resolution on the story here. 1:00 We were talking about maybe we'll be able to, like, come in fire and brimstone about it being banned or, uh, doing a happy dance about it not being banned. It's been tabled. Tush push, tabled. Yes. 1:10 We're gonna get into some of that. We're gonna get into the big rule changes coming down the pike. 1:15 We're gonna get into some NFL Draft preview with Mike's features that are running on the Too Deep Zone, uh, some of my insight from the column on Monday on Stefon Diggs' fit in New England with the Patriots, Drake May finally has a weapon, and a whole lot more. 1:29 But before we do, just a little bit of housekeeping for you. If you enjoy the podcast, please go ahead and subscribe in the Apple Podcast store or Spotify. 1:37 Check us out on YouTube at MattLombardo975, and on Apple, leave us those five-star reviews. If you like the show, leave us a five-star review. 1:45 If you think we're nuts, if you don't like the humor, if you think I'm out of my mind, leave us a five-star review and rip us. We will read the reviews on the show each week. 1:54 I might leave you a five-star review if it's just, "He's out of his mind." Yes. [laughs] That's about me. Especially if you start putting guys in the Hall of Fame after, like, two good games. Yes. 2:03 Th- th- that, that's me, the yin and the yang of the pod. And of course, subscribe to Too Deep Zone on Substack and Between the Hash Marks on Substack as well. 2:10 And Mike, let's just get right into this, because the NFL, which has found a way to become a 365-day-a-year sport already- Mm-hmm... 2:18 has now managed to f- come together as an ownership group and as a competition committee- Mm... 2:25 and find a way to get people to care about the fall meeting as much as they care about the spring meeting and as much as they care about the NFL Combine and NFL Draft. 2:35 Because just as we all did this song and dance and we're, you know, glued to our smartphones every 10 seconds, refreshing to see if the tush push would be banned, it has, as you've been s- told, tabled. Right. 2:46 So we have to care again. We have to care again, exactly. We have to go back and do this again in a couple weeks. Now, I'm on a one-man quest. The rule, proposed rule banning the tush push is the Jalen Hurts Rule. 2:59 We're going to call it... Not in, not in the headline for the article, 'cause we have to promote it, so it's- Yes... be a different clip. But, but, like, it's the Jalen Hurts Rule. 3:05 If you are saying that you need a rule to stop this, you're saying this player, like a Mel Blount or a Wilt Chamberlain, was so good at something that you manly men and great leaders of men and great football minds had to change the rules for him. 3:19 Say his name. It's the Jalen Hurts Rule. We're not gonna let Tony Romo name this after, like, some dance f- like he did with one of his, uh, country singer girlfriends or whatever. This is the Jalen Hurts Rule. 3:30 Now, I'm against it. I'm opposed to it. I wish it got shot down in flames today, but we do have to wait for it, uh, for now. 3:36 I, I'm with you, and I think that the Jalen Hurts memorial rule was a, a great way to go about this, because it does seem, and I've gone on record of this on Threads, on BlueSky, I think we've talked about it on the podcast before, that this just comes across and feels like 30 other teams, maybe 31 other teams, or however many wind up voting against the tush push being a play in the NFL and proposing or adopting a rule to ban it, like they don't have the quarterback a la Jalen Hurts. 4:03 They don't have the center who's capable of getting the kind of leverage up front that the Eagles do. 4:08 They, they don't have the defense that's capable of stopping it or the defensive coordinator capable of innovating his way to stopping it, banning the rule. So I'm with you. 4:17 If they have become so great at this play, and Jalen Hurts has the le- leverage in the lower body, the center in front of him to power him, and the, the running back in the backfield to push him, call it the Jalen Hurts Rule. 4:29 I'm with you. It's a two-man quest, but I'll let you carry the flag. Guess, uh, guess what else they don't have? To quote Hamilton, "They don't have the votes. They don't have the votes." 4:40 Because if they had the votes, it would've been banned. Yeah. So you talk about 30, 31 teams out there, it's not, 'cause if it was 30, 31 teams, this would be over. We'd be talking about this being a common play. 4:48 So what's going on here is friction, and that's hope that this play that other teams use, that I've seen college teams, I've been watching college teams use it at various points around the nation, um, you know, lower levels of competition, if they're worried about high school kids getting hurt, they can ban it. 5:01 That's fine. But this innovation can continue and can be a thing that teams use. And here, here's... We're based in Philly. You got your Eagles flag back there. I got all my, Reggie looking over my shoulder. 5:13 It feels like coming off of the Eagles destroying the Chiefs- Yes... and destroying the Chiefs and doing all these, that it, it hurts o- on, like, the psychic level to hear them say, "You used a cheat code. 5:27 You used an exploit." It's like a video gamer type of thing. "Well, that's a ga- we're going to ban that from the video game. 5:31 You're not allowed to use that character in Overwatch, 'cause that, like, they're banned from competition." That's what it says. It's almost like you're, you, you... 5:39 Eagles win the Super Bowl in such a convincing way that no Philly fan has ever seen a championship like this. It must be a, a cheat of some kind that's being taken away from you. I find that galling. 5:49 Right, and what I found really interesting in some of the drama around these meetings, the reporting from ESPN on Sunday- Okay... 5:55 of Howie Roseman gathering with, uh, I believe it was Sean McVay and a couple of other representatives around the NFL with, quote-unquote, "impassioned conversations," whipping, I, I assume, I can only assume here, whipping against vote, whipping votes against banning it. 6:12 Yes. And that's the sort of thing that, you know, the Eagles are really picking up the mantle here. They're, they're the ones that adapted it. They're the ones that run it with the most success around the NFL. Yeah. 6:21 They're the ones defending the play. 6:23 But if the rule doesn't change-I think, like, other teams would be wise, rather than expending resources in the off season to ban it, spending time breaking down the tape of what the Eagles do well. 6:34 What, what's, what's the angle that Jalen Hurts takes, you know, into the A gap or between the A and the B gap? H- at what point does Saquon Barkley push him across the line? How is the center lowering his body? 6:46 How are you figuring out way that you can coach the play in a similar way to the way the Eagles run it? Or how about you send your defensive coordinator into a, a darkness retreat, a la Aaron Rodgers- [laughs]... 6:58 where all he has is an iPad and Eagles film to figure out how to stop this thing. 7:04 Like, to me, it, it's wasted energy and wasted resources at this point trying to get a play banned, that if there was ever a moment to ban it, this would've been it. 7:12 Right, and you always have to remember, a quarterback sneak without a tush push is, like, a 75% win. Right. So, like, how are we going to stop this? You're not going to stop it most of the time. It's fourth and inches. 7:20 Your chance to stop it was 10 yards ago, and you didn't, but how can you mitigate it a little bit? Defenses should look at this. 7:27 And, and you know and I know part of it is some quarterbacks will say no, and that's a, a, a prerogative of a quarterback saying, "Whatever this is, I'm not doing it." Patrick Mahomes does not sneak. 7:36 Lamar Jackson does not sneak. Aaron Rodgers does not sneak. That's fine. We were talking off-camera, Tyler Warren, tight end from Penn State- Yeah... runs a sneak. You can run a tush push with him. J.J. 7:46 Pegues, the defensive tackle of Ole Miss, ran sneaks. Now, he's a 300-pound man. You can have a 300-pound man with two other 300-pound men pushing behind them, you can make this the money play for the ages. 7:57 Uh, Cam Skattebo, I was, I was looking at him, Arizona State running back, big hombre, he runs sneaks. So if you're just like, "Well, we got Lamar Jackson, we're not gonna let him sneak," go get one of those guys. Right. 8:06 Go look into the college ranks. Go look at your, your tight end. Look at your Blake Bowler or Noah Gray or, or Mark Andrews. Can we run this? And do that and be innovators, rather than being... You know what? 8:17 I got a name for these teams. Whiny heinies. Yeah. Stop being whiny heinies, Sean McDermott, LaFleur, McVay, who doesn't like the optics. McVay doesn't like the optics. 8:26 McVay, who takes draft weekend and like, "I'm gonna go hang out and drink at a, a, at a beach bar." He doesn't like the optics of the tush push. Go away. Shut up. Stop it. 8:35 And by the way, get your quarterback to not throw the ball out of bounds on fourth down i, in the snow in a playoff game, Sean. Work on those optics. You and I are very clearly in the favor of not banning the tush push. 8:46 We're, we're, we're in favor of keeping the play around, right? I'm, I'm glad you- I can tell. I'm glad you put a button on [laughs] on that. 8:52 To summarize, we're against- But I, I do think that there's a, an interesting compromise a- and, and I'd like to give credit to the person on social media, I think it was on Bluesky, who suggested it to me. Yeah. 9:03 Um, but, but a couple people have brought this up, that if you're not going to ban the rule, what if the offensive team forfeits forward progress, that you just play until the whistle? 9:14 You know how sometimes there's the, the first initial push and maybe it gets stopped, but the second effort- Mm-hmm... you know, you, you get it off the second push, you get the first down. 9:23 I, I do wonder if the compromise here is that you no longer get the benefit of forward progress, that you play until the whistle, and that the defense can push back. 9:32 I do wonder, as short of banning the rule, if that's the compromise that the NFL winds up coming to. 9:38 That could, you could come up with something like that, like, "Ha ha, now we've pushed back the other way," and the, the continuation of the play goes on. Um, I don't know. I'd, I'd ra- I... 9:47 If it's safe, and again, it seems like so far there's been no injuries with this. Right. These guys are in short quarters. We're gonna talk about the kickoff. 9:53 The injuries come from these fast collisions, not necessarily short collisions. Come up with a solution like that so it looks a little bit like... And people will say, "Oh, it looks like rugby. 10:01 It doesn't look like real football." It looks like real football. It looks like 1930s, '40s, '50s football. It looks like Pop Warner and high school football, and it looks like even the NFL of the 1970s to go back. 10:12 It looks more- And oh, by the way, by the way, the equipment has advanced just, just a, a tiny bit- True [laughs]... from the days of, of guys dying on the field- Oh... in leather helmets running this play. 10:22 But that was the flying wedge. They were running 30 yards in, in, in the push-push formation and slamming into guys. That's how people died, and you're right, they had leather helmets or just hair. Right. 10:31 Which is like the frizz, which I have right now, 'cause I need a haircut. Um, but right. A- a- and again, tell me about safety, show me the injuries. Right. That, that's my whole thing here. 10:41 If it's, if it's truly moti- motivated, Sean McVay, by the concern about player safety- Yes... show the injury data. Show that X amount of defensive players have been injured by this. 10:51 Show that X amount of centers, outside of the New York Giants one time- Yeah... uh, having an injured player on the tush push, show me the injury data, because to date, we haven't seen it. 11:01 Even Jalen Hurts, when he was banged up against the L- Los Angeles Rams in the playoffs, the Eagles still ran the tush push a couple of times in the snow with him not being 100%. Right. Right. 11:11 So I mean, there's obviously... It's, I mean, ev- everything's an injury concern. It's just like- Right... you know, it's, it's gonna be a 75% conversion rate no matter what. There's always an injury concern. 11:20 Show me the over the top of regular football injury concern, give me some statistics, and we'll say, "Okay, we've got nothing." We don't even... Again, college teams run this. 11:28 We don't even have this at the college ranks. Correct, and you know, we spent a lot of time talking about a rule that hasn't changed, might change at a later date. 11:36 You know, we're gonna pay attention to more NFL meetings and more off-season calendar, you know, benchmarks from here on out. 11:41 But let's touch on some of the rules that, that have changed, and the first of which being the impact of the kickoff rule that you alluded to a second ago, Mike, where touchbacks now come out to the 35-yard line. Mm-hmm. 11:52 I have a couple of interesting theories about this. Okay. Okay, what's up? So in, in college, the touchback I believe is the 25 or the 30-yard line. 12:01 So now you'll see in college on kickoffs, on 95% of kickoffs you'll just see the guy, return man, go like this. Mm-hmm. Touchback. You know, the ball comes out, there's no return. Mm-hmm. 12:11 And this entire new rule was legislated in the first place for two reasons. One, player safety- Mm-hmm... and two, to induce kickoff returns. Yes. 12:22 Now, now I'm not, I, I'm not sensing the teams are going to want to allow their opponent just to blankly start at the 35-yard line. Right.But I'm also not convinced that you're- Mm-hmm... 12:35 going to get the benefit that you're thinking of getting from this new rule of player safety, because if the whole point was to crack down on the high-speed collisions, 12:46 n- now I guess you're gonna induce some kickoffs, but inducing kickoffs is going to induce potentially more injuries. 12:51 So it's like they're trying to walk a tightrope here, that I'm not sure that they're gonna be able to pull off. Yeah, they are. 12:57 And, and they've mitigated it, if you look, and the email just sent out with all the information minutes before we came on. 13:03 So if you look at it, they are also moving, I think, everyone closer together, they're making new rules about the alignments on both sides of the kickoffs, and what this... 13:11 And, and the rule says, make it look more like a scrimmage play. In other words, the collisions between blocker and tackler will be at a closer- Closer range... closer range, maybe more like a punt. 13:20 I'm not, I'm not sure how it's going to look, 'cause I'm not that versed it. So I think that's one of the ways they're addressing it, but you're right. 13:26 Like, right now you don't get a lot of kickoffs at the college level. I wanna see this rule impact at the high school level. I know I've talked about this. High school kickoffs are concussion city for like- Yes... 13:38 15-year-olds, and those things are crazy, and this rule should work its way down if it's proving that it's safer, and we'll see how that goes. But it, it... I think you will see more kickoffs, and more kickoff... 13:47 Excuse me, more kickoff returns. Returns. And one of the things I've been looking at with my draft coverage is, where are the return men coming out of college? Yeah. 13:55 Like, they're, they're out there, 'cause there are guys who have retur- they are the return man, they do have, like, 20 returns a year or whatever, but teams are gonna have to start looking at this, which for 10 years, besides Cordarrelle Patterson, it's just like, "Back up k- back up running back, go, go return the kicks," you know? 14:08 That's what I think it's going to be. I think you're going to see a premium on guys that are taken, you know, on Saturday during the NFL Draft in rounds five through seven. 14:16 You're going to be looking for the f- number three wide receiver, the number two running back, somebody who has special team experience, might have returned punts in college. 14:27 Now he's a punt returner, we're gonna teach him how to return kickoffs because he has that, that experience on special teams. Right. That might be the angle that you go. 14:36 But it just feels like on a, a cursory level- Yeah... that we're inching our way back to the kickoff being an injury-prone play again. 14:46 A- and you, you're gonna have some very different strategies, I think, with this rule than you did a year ago. 14:51 Right, and i- if they're making, if they are addressing safety by changing the formations and the lineup, you'll probably have a pre-season full of penalties and all. 14:58 Which is fine, 'cause we learned that kind of went away, that wasn't a story, but I, I hope that that's what we see. 15:03 It's like, oh, oh yeah, we've mitigated this by saying, oh, they're only 10 yards apart so the collision's only gonna happen at a certain speed. 15:09 The, uh, kick coverage team has to back up with the guy, sort of like, you know, hand fighting on the way back, et cetera. Um, that's, that's my hope. Yeah. 15:18 And then the other hope, I, I'm excited about this rule in particular, uh, the new overtime rule. 15:22 I think that the NFL overtime had been kind of broken by the fact that if you score a touchdown, the game ends without the other offense having the chance to match the touchdown. 15:31 The new rule brings it to the postseason playoff rules, where you get the chance to have the ball regardless of what happens. It extends the game, I think it extends the opportunity. 15:43 Um, rather than it being sudden death, rather than it being hinging on your defense making a stop, I happen to like it. What are your thoughts? I... Stop, play defense. You lose the toss, play defense. 15:55 Or if you think you're, y- you, whatever the cir- circumstance is. When they said, "Oh, you can't win with the field goal," I understood that, because the field goal was getting increasingly easy to get. 16:03 You know, one or two first downs, 55 yard or you didn't have a chance. You have a chance on defense. Yeah. I don't love this, and I hope you love ties. [laughs] Because it's a 10-minute overtime period- Yeah... 16:16 and one team marches down and scores a touchdown, the other team gets the ball, they're gonna march down. Are they really gonna go for two if they get it? Are they really go- Now Dan Campbell will. Yes. 16:27 But, uh, but, like, the, the strategy will come in, there's eight seconds left and it's like, we can walk away on the road like an old hockey coach with a tie in this situation rather than a loss. 16:36 Let's look at the standings, et cetera, et cetera. And, and it's not 15 minutes, there's not more time going back and forth. It's kind of like one possession each way potentially. 16:43 Right, it's not gonna be double overtime, triple overtime. You're not gonna be playing un- un- until, until a winner is decided. Right. 16:49 To me, it, it, it creates the strategy of, okay, do we go for the big play early and get the touchdown, or like you suggested, do you milk the clock? 16:58 Do you try to go for that 12-play methodical march down the field and leave your opponent minimal time or awful field position to get it done? Right. 17:07 It brings the tie back into play, but it seems like the NFL just can't seem, dating back to when you and I were both kids at, at various generations of- [laughs]... you know, w- w- w- what is overtime? 17:19 They, they, they can't- What is overtime?... decide on whether ties are in play or whether we're looking to avoid the tie. Right, and all of sports have a- avoided ties for the last 30, 40 years. 17:29 Like, ties were such a part of hockey for so long. Yes, you get the point. You get- [laughs] Yeah, you get the point, right... the road tie, right? You- Play for the tie on the road. Yes. 17:37 A- a- and like that, something we cannot stomach the idea that there will not be a winner or a loser. Geez, European soccer fans seem to do okay with draws, et cetera, et cetera. 17:45 Football, I'm, I've been doing some historical stuff and it's like, and that team finished, you know, nine, three and three that season. There were ties all the time. 17:53 We're not gonna go back to that certainly, 'cause you do have things like the two-point conversion to convert things. 17:58 But I, I think, you know, the way this is written right now, they're gon- there might be, across the NFL, five, six ties next year. Yeah. Is the NFL okay with this? I'm fine with it. I don't care. 18:07 Yeah, it, it, it's gonna create all kinds of drama at the end of the year when you start talking about, like, playoff teams and the playoff races and- Yes... 18:14 you know, the teams that have the ties versus the teams that don't, what you're gonna need to do to clinch versus can you clinch with a tie? 18:20 It creates an extra added layer of strategy in a way that, you know, pitchers batting in baseball versus having a DH- Right... might wind up having in terms of late game decisions and, and big games down the stretch. 18:32 Right, which could be fun. I know what I'm gonna do every Thursday Night Football. Like, right now the prop for a tie-... is usually like plus 5,000. Thursday Night Football's gonna be like plus 600, 'cause- Yes... 18:43 'cause, 'cause, you know, the oddsmaker's like, "It's a Thursday night game. Those MFs are gonna be kicking field goals [laughs] in overtime." 18:49 I'll be playing the tie every Thursday night, staying up, rooting for the tie. That's how I'm gonna play this. 18:54 Absolutely, and one team that, you know, is hoping to, uh, be one of those teams in the mix and, and make the leap from the basement to being in the conversation of, uh, contending for a playoff spot is the New England Patriots. 19:05 And we touched a little bit a couple weeks ago about some of their moves, adding Milton Williams, adding Carlton Davis on defense, you know, getting playmakers at two levels on defense, but where was the weapon? 19:16 Turns out they were just lying in wait until they could bid against themselves- Right... and commit s- up to $69 million to Stefon Diggs- [laughs] I know, but-... 19:25 who's now the number one receiver atop the Patriots depth chart. You answered your own question in there, be- bi- bidding on themselves and paying $69 million. Yes. 19:35 I, I mean, I, I, I mean, I don't, I don't hate the move. They've got the money to... W- what is, what is Stefon Diggs right now? What is he? 19:43 Yeah, to me, that, that, that was the biggest question, and I spent some time in the column on Monday asking around a little bit, and I spoke to a coach, uh, who coaches offense in the AFC, and I basically said, "How are they gonna use him?" 19:53 Because h- he's not the same burner that he was back in the day. He's coming off the ACL, so who knows how effective he's going to be early on. Is he still that top of the depth chart player? 20:05 And the coach told me, quote, "He's going to be a good position flex piece. Josh McDaniels is probably gonna use him a lot in the slot, and also in single wide receiver sets to isolate him from mismatches." 20:15 And my retort would be, 20:17 does he still create a mismatch, especially in a division that has Sauce Gardner, especially in a division that houses the Buffalo Bills defense and a pretty good secondary with a lot of talent, you know, on the other side of the field? 20:31 Mike, I, I just don't know. I know you needed to do something. Yeah. I know they needed to get a weapon. I know that you lost out on Cooper Kupp. I know that you weren't able to land DK Metcalf in a trade. Yeah. 20:40 I know that Chris Godwin wound up- Yeah... in Tampa Bay, who might've been a great fit, so the options got less and less and less. I just wonder what Stefon Diggs, the kind of impact he can make. 20:51 I think he's gonna be a, a, a change mover for them, maybe because he's had so many catches on third down, he becomes a security blanket and safety valve for Drake May, but if you're betting on him being that 1,200 yard, eight touchdown receiver, those days might be over. 21:06 Right, and I, I, I'd have to look at the exact contract, which I have spaced on, I'll admit to, so are they really paying him like that, or is there all kind of incentive money and goofy money in there for his ego? 21:15 But coming off an injury, was kind of the wide receiver two-ish before he got hurt in, uh, i- in, in Houston, because Nico was number one, and Tank Dell was like, like sort of like the playmaker, and he was- Yeah... 21:28 he, he was sort of becoming the veteran guy. 21:29 He was the veteran guy, and before that, you had the Bills season where he like, by the end of it, he's like catching a s- screen pass now and then, catching the six-yard pass on third and five. Get, s- get him involved. 21:41 Get him involved so he doesn't, you know, uh, become a headache on the sidelines. I don't know who he is. 21:46 I have a funny feeling the coaches talking about him might not be certain who he is, because that guy, that Diggs that we are thinking about, is kind of a 2022-ish person, or maybe first half of 2023-ish, and that's receding in the memory. 22:00 For sure, and you know, I reached out to Matt Chatham, who was a linebacker- Yes... 22:04 for the Patriots during their run to multiple Super Bowls, who, you know, not only was he in New England, but he practiced against Josh McDaniels' defense every day for three years. 22:13 So I thought an interesting perspective there. He thinks he's gonna be a guy who converts a lot of short to medium first downs- Yeah... third down, you know, a, a security valve. 22:22 But he also said, quote, "It's not a perfect parallel, but if he's healthy, I think he'll actually remind Patriots fans a lot of Julian Edelman and what he used to bring to that offense." 22:31 Well, they, which I think is interesting, kind of that yards after the catch guy, not necessarily the field stretcher, but who's gonna get a couple steps of separation and turn the, the six-yard out route into a 12-yard gain. 22:43 You know, that, that, I could see that if Diggs still has that kind of speed. Maybe. I don't see a Gronk there, uh, to help Edelman out. I don't see a Tom Brady. I see a Drake May. 22:53 I, I guess I can see it like he becomes this slot crafty guy, which is kind of what Edelman was, and that's what you get out of it. Okay. [laughs] Yeah. 23:02 O- a- and you might have a headache, 'cause he can be a little bit of a headache, and you have an injury concern, and you have a veteran guy, so he's sort of like a developmental piece in the short term for Drake May. 23:12 I, fine, I, I, I guess I'm still wrapping my brain around what is the big plan for the Patriots, and is this a year of just putting pieces around the guy and spending a lot of money and hoping you get Drake May to, you know, seven and 10 or whatever. 23:25 I, I, if that's what it is, okay. I, I think, I think if Stefon Diggs is a piece- Uh-huh... I think it's fine. I think it's fine. 23:32 I- if you're gonna go and get Travis Hunter, or you're gonna go and get, you know, Jayden Higgins in round two, or you're gonna maybe get a burner like, uh, like Tez from Oregon, Tez Johnson, who we saw down in Mobile. 23:43 Yes. You know, some sort of speedster that you put on the perimeter, and Diggs is part of the equation- Mm-hmm... I could see it, and then at least you'd have a, a young receiver who can grow and develop. 23:54 Hell, take Tyler Warren. Trade back a couple spots- Yeah... 23:56 and take Tyler Warren, get a couple draft picks into the future, and, you know, then you have a reliable pass-catching tight end who's a monster after the catch. You'd have Stefon Diggs. 24:06 You know, later in the rounds, you grab your receiver, and- Yeah... and you're off to the races. 24:10 But if it's Stefon Diggs and four guys on the depth chart, then I don't know that either one of you would recognize that Backyard Beans, the coffee shop down the corner, if they walked in and sat down next to us. 24:21 I don't think it's gonna get the job done. Backyard Beans getting the plug there, and yeah, all, all the Kendrick Bourns- Yes... and the, uh, and they, they, why am I spacing? They picked up a wide receiver. 24:32 They got Matt Collins. Yeah. They got Matt Collins, our favorite special teamer and, uh, g- He's a culture driver... golf, c- culture driver, goldfish enthusiast. Yes. 24:41 Uh, yes, very much, very, very much into fish, very much a fishy guy. Um, [laughs] but y- get Travis HunterYeah. Right, right... go, go get Travis Hunter, and then, like, everything else just makes sense. 24:53 It's like, it's fine, we have Drake May and Travis Hunter, and all this other stuff will happen, but we got this dude, he's probably going to be a Ty Law mixed with, like, some fake Brandy Moss substance or whatever, and go do that, and then I'll stop complaining about the Patriots off-season. 25:09 A- and you, my friend, you busted out, since we ha- last podcasted together, the Too Deep 96. Mm-hmm. A- and y- you kind of made some headlines, or at least made some waves on Blue Sky- Oh... 25:20 among myself and a couple other folks, um, by making Travis Hunter your number one overall prospect in the Too Deep 96. Yeah. 25:29 And, you know, you s- you see the Nittany Lion over there, and, and you see some of the other, so you- [laughs]... you see all my allegiance lies here, but I've also h- watched a lot of this guy play. 25:38 I'm shocked that you had Travis Hunter above Abdul Carter based on the explosiveness, the bend, the disruptiveness, the fact that he, you know, takes up residence in opposing backfields every week reminds me of watching Micah Parsons, both back at Penn State and what he does in Dallas. 25:56 But you had Travis Hunter number one, so I'm gonna give you the floor to defend the- You could say-... defend the pick here. I, I, I just burned Abdul Carter by putting him third overall. I saw that, yes. 26:06 And I put, I put G- A- Ashton Jeanty ahead of him too, the running back from Boise State. 26:10 And yeah, I, I mean, he is a third overall pick, and Micah was what, sixth, seventh overall pick, and, and many of them, I mean, Myles Garrett was a first overall pick, et cetera. 26:19 Most of these guys that get 13 sacks a year, which Abdul Carter is going to get, wind up being the fifth overall, the sixth overall. There's often a quarterback in front of them. There's often something else. 26:28 In this case, I, I went back, and I actually did a terrible job at this, and I apologize. Like I said, have we ever seen anything like Travis Hunter? Have we ever seen a major program two-position superstar in history? 26:43 And I said, you know, it was Charles Woodson. It was Prime Time himself, although- Deion... yeah, Prime Time did not play offense in college. 26:51 He played offense in the NFL, but h- he, he returned punts in a way where you're like, obviously this guy could have played wide receiver. Uh, Charles Woodson did play offense in college. 27:00 I, and then my, my editor, the great JW, uh, Jerry Walper said, uh, "You forgot Rod Woodson." Right. 27:08 And I was like, oh my gosh, Rod- And he's like, "Look at the stats of Rod Wilson, Woodson played running back and returned punts and defensive back." 27:14 So I got that in there in the last second, and then one of the first people to respond on Blue Sky is, "You forgot Champ Bailey, who caught, like, 40 or 50 passes in his senior year at..." Why am I drawing a blank? 27:24 Alabama, right? Was it Alabama? It was- I'm drawing a blank. I'm sorry. You can look it up while I vamp a little bit, Ch- but- Yeah... you can see I, I, I spaced on Champ Bailey. He's c- Georgia. He was a Georgia kid. 27:34 Champ Bailey went to Georgia. He went to Georgia. Uh, so what do those four guys have in common? They're all Hall of Famers. Yeah. 27:42 Every time you- And if you get the chance to take a Hall of Famer number one, you take a Hall of Famer number one. That, that's the Dave Gettleman philosophy of drafting. Oh, God. 27:48 You, you [laughs] see, that's what comes after me. See, see? [laughs] Conversation- No, but you, Matt-... just backfired a bit. You said- 27:56 You get a chance to get a, you get a chance to get a Hall of Famer, you get a Hall of Famer, Matt. Come on, Matt. Come on, you sit there, Matt, you sit there and you type your stuff up, Matt. 28:04 [laughs] God, I picture- Don't tell me different... 28:07 you sitting in the, in the press room at, at, at, at Quest Diagnostics or whatever the hell they're calling it these days, and the, the typing of the gold, the, the gold jacket player and yeah. 28:17 Let me tell you something, Matt. When we drafted Jim Kelly, when we drafted him out the USFL, Matt, you weren't there. You were a kid. I, that's a terrible Gettleman. I don't know who I'm doing there. 28:27 [laughs] That's a terrible Gettleman. Anyway. Not far off. [laughs] But that, like, but that's, look, 28:34 you look at Travis Hunter, and you're like, "Well, gosh, I don't know what kind of cornerback he is because his technique is off 'cause he played wide receiver." He's the only player like him that we've seen in 25 years. 28:44 Yeah. That's why he's number one. That's why he's number one in the Too Deep 96. The, the unicorn, so to speak. He's the unicorn. 28:50 N- n- not, not the pass rusher who completely took over playoff games, not the pass rusher who played with one arm in the, in the Orange Bowl and still- Yeah... made an impact. 29:00 The- The, the, the, the pass rusher who we see a guy like him every other year- Yeah... 29:03 who comes out and becomes an All-Pro and becomes one of the Defensive Player of the Year finalists, that's who we have in Abdul Carter, the guy- Yes... 29:10 who's going to be an All-Pro, get 13 sacks, 14 sacks a year for many years, like TJJ, like one of the Boses, et cetera, versus the liter- the unicorn, the literal generational talent, where less than once per 20 or 25 years generationally, someone who can do this thing occurs, and that's the equation. 29:29 Yeah. A- and, and it's been a great list so far, a great rundown. It's been a lot of fun to read. Check it out at The Too Deep Zone. Um, your, your quick thoughts, everybody wants to talk about the quarterbacks. 29:38 Everybody wants to talk about Shedeur Sanders, about Cam Ward, about, you know, Jaxson Dart, who you and I watched throw passes in mobile. [laughs] Right? I mean- Threw a few. He threw a few passes. 29:52 He, he didn't- [laughs]... always fumble the snap and then pounce on it. Well, yeah, yeah, exactly. 29:56 And, and the last day of, of pract- I've seen you, you know, mention that Jaxson Dart ascended on the third day of practice, but you were already on an airplane. Yeah. I got on an airplane, you know, after that practice. 30:07 Okay. But you didn't miss much. They, they were in shorts and shells. There was no, there was no Joe Montana or Tom Brady emerging in the body of Jaxson Dart on that final day. 30:16 Um, but, but as far as the quarterbacks go, Cam Ward, Shedeur Sanders, Jaxson Dart, Jalen Milroe, maybe it's not a great year to want quarterbacks, but what's your takeaway from, from studying Cam Ward, his ceiling, and what you think of him as a prospect right now? 30:31 Yeah, I, I, I really like Cam Ward, and I didn't g- I went into it saying, "I don't know what I'm going to see here," or maybe I'm gonna see another weird variation on Jayden Daniels, who it's bombs away, bombs away, bombs away, and you have to, like, see how that translates, and there's a lot of bombs away, there's a lot of mistakes, but there's also, like, this polished quarterback that's emerging there. 30:51 Yeah. And I saw a guy who comfortably in the pocket could reset his feet, could look for a second read sometimes and al-Ex- unless you're Andrew Luck, you're only doing that sometimes at the college level. 31:02 Find check downs, scramble appropriately, and I said, you know, I, I really like this guy. He's got shades of Bo Nix a- having emerged after years. 31:12 He's got shades of Jayden Daniels, although I don't, I'm not gonna wish that- No... rookie year on anybody. 31:17 And I think I landed on, uh, saying, you know, Baker Mayfield, but with more maturity, but than Baker Mayfield had six, seven years ago. M- m- he's, you know, he's a different guy now. 31:26 Like, that kind of thing where you're getting a guy, not great size, speed, arm talent, but knows what he's doing and has big play capability, and I'm, he, he's gonna be a worthy first overall pick if that's what the Titans do. 31:37 Although the Titans might be trying to coax the Giants, trying to wake the Giants up. Guys, guys, guys, guys, Russell Wilson and Jameis, guys, guys, you know? Right. 31:45 A- and, and, you know, I was just gonna follow up there. 31:48 You look at Cam Ward's tape a- and it's almost like you can start to see it a little bit with Brian Callahan, you know, quarterback whisperer background a little bit. You have Calvin Ridley there. 31:58 They got a little bit more out of Treylon Burks last season, you know, former first round pick that they've been wanting to get more out of that receiver. In that division, 32:07 you can drop a Cam Ward in there [laughs] and you can- Right... make some noise. Right, right. It, it, it, the road to the top is not that far. Right. 32:15 So you can definitely do it, and I, I even saw, like, a part of me was like, is, is this guy, like, a Burrow level talent? And I, I backed off of that. Yeah. 32:22 So when you mentioned Callahan, it's like, no, I, I, I remember what Burrow looked like at LSU, and yes, he was throwing to a bunch of s- future offensive player of the years, et cetera, but he's not that. 32:32 [laughs] But yeah, I mean, he's, he, he could go in there and definitely do what Stroud did- Yeah... 32:37 in that division, where it's like, ah, you, you probably get three wins, you get splits with these other teams right off the bat because the other teams aren't that good. Right. 32:44 A- and, you know, the division is wide open and, you know, you, you bring up the Giants. 32:49 That's a lot of money to, to invest in Russell Wilson and Jameis Winston a- and still be picking number three overall, where you could bring in a rookie quarterback. 32:59 Uh, for my mail bag last week, I asked a quarterback coach, how do you think that they're gonna handle the s- the personalities in that room? 33:07 Because it's already a big personality group with Russell Wilson and with, uh- It is... Jameis Winston. Yeah. You could still see a Shedeur Sanders wind up in New York. 33:18 You could still see Abdul Carter go number one, and maybe they, the Browns decide that they don't like either quarterback, so they trade back a spot with the Giants. You could still see Cam Ward- Yeah... 33:30 or wind up there in, in, in some way. Mm-hmm. And the c- coach said to me, in terms of how he thinks they're gonna handle it, quote, unquote, "Not well." [laughs] That's the expectation from around the league. 33:44 You are 2025 New York Giants. They're going to handle it not well. It's, right, because how, think of all the cooks in the kitchen, right? 33:51 You have Russell Wilson, who thinks that he's on one final ride and, you know, this is his last story, and I, I don't even know why he signed there, to be hon- I'm not even... 33:59 I know, I know there's Malik Nabers, you know, chuck it up, Malik's down there somewhere, he'll catch it. Like, I get that. Mm-hmm. But if you're the Giants, you spent $4 million, or whatever it was, on Jameis Winston. 34:11 If he's going to be the bridge, let him be the bridge. Right. Let him be the bridge to somewhere. Let him be the bridge to Shedeur, the bridge to Arch, the bridge to Drew Aller. 34:20 I don't care who it is, but to spend $4 million on Jameis Winston, then go and spend $10.5 million or $21 million, whatever it is, on Russell Wilson, who's only thrown for 21 or more touchdowns once in the last three years- Mm... 34:34 you're, you're compounding a problem, you're creating future headaches for yourself, and you're, you're, you're not exactly creating a runway to your incoming rookie winning a starting job at some point, because J- because we all know after what happened in Denver, Russell Wilson is not the type to just sit there quietly a- and relinquish his starting job after four weeks. 34:53 And you've seen Shedeur is talking, like, "Oh, it's a done deal. I'm going to the Giants." Right, right. 34:59 So what did you just spend $21 million for when you could have spent four to have Jameis Winston play four games, to say, "Oh, okay, we we're waiting for the kid to get ready. Now we'll play him. 35:09 Now I'm Joe Shane, now I'm Brian Daboll, now I've reset the clock on my own tenure in New York by playing a rookie quarterback that you don't wanna fire coaches and have him have this new scheme in his second year. 35:20 You have to extend me now. You can't fire me now." Mm-hmm. It's just such a waste of resources. 35:26 I don't know why I'm getting so fired up about this, but the Giants just lit money on fire for two veteran quarterbacks, when the move- [laughs]... 35:33 is to get one of these two guys, or at least somebody to get you by until next year when you're picking one anyway and you pick Arch Manning. See, I kinda thought Jameis was the bridge, 'cause he can- Right... 35:42 he, he can handle New York media. Right. Like, everything rolls off- The fun guy... my back like a duck, whatever, you know? Yeah. And I can throw 30 interceptions, and no- nothing you say will phase me. 35:51 And then, you know, by mid-season it's like, "Oh God, we're ready for whoever's on that bench there." Uh, do you take Shedeur at his word? It's a very... Everything with Shedeur, of course, is weird. Yeah. 36:01 Like, I'm going to be picked third overall, I can guarantee it, isn't, is, is a banana pants type of thing to be, for a, a prospect to be saying. And for, for Giants fans- Yeah... 36:11 I think they'd understand Jameis Winston going out there and through five weeks, the Giants being, you know, one and four, and him throwing, you know, seven touchdowns, but, but eight picks, whatever the case may be. 36:26 If you've got Travis Hunter over here, Malik Nabers over there, and you know that you're gonna get a quarterback next year- Yeah... you can accept that. 36:32 I don't know how you buy into Russell Wilson with those same results and Jameis Winston. I just don't understand it. I don't understand it. And again, that's another, wow, Travis Hunter just falls to, just falls to... 36:44 And if Abdul Carter falls to you, fine, 'cause it's like you put him and Brian Burns, but I think it's going to be Abdul Carter and Myles Garrett. I th- I think we, we said it on the last one. 36:52 I think that was, "Hey, Myles, we're gonna get you a friend." Yes. I think that's how they c- they settled him down a little bit, you know? 36:59 Um, but, like, you're gonna do that, and then you're gonna bring Shedeur into that room.Right. Right Uh, uh, Brian Davis will go, "You know what? Just fire me. Just fire me." [laughs] "Just fire me now. 37:10 Just fire me now." There's no way out of this situation. Yeah, and, and we'll see what the Giants wind up doing at number three, but I, I just can't, I can't follow them down this path. 37:20 I just don't understand what you're trying to accomplish because you're not gonna win enough games to make the playoffs with Russell Wilson. 37:26 You might win too many games not to be picking number one and number two next year, and even if you bring in Shedeur, it's chaos. 37:33 But one of the teams that will have a chance to create that chaos for the Giants is the Dallas Cowboys, who, Mike, it seems like Jerry Jones, I don't know how or why it's happened- Mm-hmm... 37:44 but he seems to have woken up, because there's a report from our good friend, um, uh, why my mi- why is my mind blanking here? Uh- We have good, we have good friends? We do. 37:55 Is it, is it- The Dallas Cowboys reporter, uh, why, why is my mind blanking? Clarence Hill? Clarence? Yeah, Clarence Hill, that's who it is. My mind was blanking on Clarence Hill. 38:04 Has a report that the Cowboys have offered to make Micah Parsons the highest paid non-quarterback in the NFL. 38:10 So it seems like the Cowboys have decided that after waiting on Dak Prescott, and after waiting on CeeDee Lamb until August- Mm-hmm... 38:18 that they're gonna get ahead of things, or try to get ahe- ahead of things, with Micah Parsons. Ahead of things, but behind Miles Garrett. Um- Right. 38:25 [laughs] And, and let's see if that offer's actually on the table, or if that's the sort of general thing they said and then they wandered off along the way. I don't, I don't think, I don't think Jerry's at the meetings. 38:34 I think Stephen is at the meetings. Yeah. Yeah. It was Stephen who spoke, and you can kind of read between the lines of that there. Obviously taking care of Micah Parsons is an absolutely essential move for that team. 38:45 The quotes coming out of there is them kind of showing their hand a little bit. They want a, they want another receiver to go with CeeDee Lamb. Hey, good luck, this is a bad draft for receivers. 38:54 Hopefully you don't take somebody first overall who's not very good. Right. But it is, it is encouraging, because they did, they took care of some business. 39:01 They were able to get the, the big defensive tackle signed, I, I can't pronounce his name sitting here like this. Osa, Osa Odighizuwa or whatever his name is, yes. Yes. 39:09 Yeah, they got him signed to a long-term, they didn't just franchise him. That free agency class is mind-boggling. Yes. 39:16 I spoke to an executive shortly after free, the first wave of free agency, and I said, "Hey, give me your biggest winners and losers." Um, the first words were, "Not the Cowboys." 39:25 So even people inside the league were kind of scratching their heads at what the, what Dallas was doing. They were drafting off of, like, they were signing off of old 2020- First round picks. 39:34 Yeah Yeah, for old first round picks, it's like you're a chop shop now. [laughs] The chop shop. 39:38 We're gonna bring in old, dented, broken down, beaten up, smashed Maseratis, and we're gonna try and rebuild one out of all these Paris Campbells and Javonte Williams and Ben Peyton, uh, uh, Barbers and, um, um, anyway. 39:50 Uh, Kyir Elam. Yeah. Right. Right, what is that? Trading asset for Kyir Elam. What, what- Right. Right... what are you doing? Right. Very, very, very weird. 39:58 So I, I don't understand what that team is doing, but if they pay Micah Parsons, that we understand. Right. You, you'll have your building blocks with Prescott- Yeah... 40:05 with Lamb, with Parsons, they'd be the future of the franchise. Yep. 40:08 And, and I think that if you look at what Micah Parsons has done in his career at age 25, 52 and a half sacks for four years, juxtapose it with Miles Garrett, 29 years old, Defensive Player of the Year on the resume. 40:21 With Parsons ascending, I can see why, if, if you're Micah Parsons, go get the 40 million plus. Go get- Yeah... 42 million. 40:29 I mean, uh, do, do, do what you need to do to beat that contract, because you're still ascending in a way that even Miles Garrett isn't at this point. That's exactly it. 40:37 You get this, and that whole, when he's 29, if this, the Cowboys are still messed up, he can talk about, "Gosh, I would like a ring," and then he can do some other things. 40:45 Take care of yourself, and then you're Defensive Player of the Year candidate every single year, and the team isn't that terrible. Again, there are triplets there that you can sort of build around. You're one of them. 40:55 Get your bag. Get your bag, and then get your ring with a team like the Lions or the Eagles- Yeah... or the Chiefs in, uh, four years time. Right, right. 41:03 Do a, do a Von Miller tour late in your career and see if you can get one. Sack master for hire, baby. [laughs] It's great work if you can get it. Mike, what's coming up on the Two Deep Zone? More of the Two Deep 96. 41:14 So we did Shedeur Sanders, we took a little break, there's like a little comedy piece on there now. But we got 96 guys to get through, so we're gonna start hitting five or six guys in a row. 41:24 A lot of big play makers, and folks, if you don't, if you're not checking it out, if you're like, "Oh, God, draft coverage, scouting reports, they make me wanna claw my eyes out," doing little profiles of the guys, telling you some stuff about their background. 41:35 You're gonna learn who's a great Fortnite player, you're gonna find out who's a great singer. You're gonna hear some tragic backstories, you're gonna hear some random weird backstories along the way. 41:44 You're gonna find out about defensive tackles who occasionally kick, uh, uh, punch offensive lineman in the gonads. Uh- [laughs] Like, like more than once in their career. Uh- Wow... 41:55 you're, you're gonna get a little Shamar Turner's, uh, uh, retrospective of all of his cheap shots, et cetera. A lot of fun, interesting stuff coming up. Matt, what are you doing? 42:03 Yeah, first of all, what I love about reading the Two Deep 96 is that it's the mix of a little bit of classic NFL analytics analysis and scouting reports, but it almost feels like I'm getting taken into the meeting rooms in Indie, getting to know these guys on a way that probably only their coaches, their families, teammates, and NFL coaches who were in those meetings got to know them. 42:26 So I'm really enjoying the s- the series. People should subscribe to the Two Deep Zone to check it out between now and the draft. Uh, a little bit of a, a, a big feature on one of the top quarterbacks in the works. 42:35 You'll hear from one of his top coaches in the program- Yeah... thoughts on him from some executives and coaches around the league. Um- Mm-hmm... 42:43 and since we podcast every other week, sometime in the next couple weeks here, you'll start to see some more draft coverage emerge on Between the Hash Marks. 42:51 Uh, my big boards of top 10 offensive players, top 10 defensive players, they'll be emerging soon. 42:57 And, uh, readers of Between the Hash Marks last spring, Mike, they saw Cooper DeJean as the number one defensive player on my board last April. 43:08 We'll see if we can replicate that success on either side of the ball this time around. That's fantastic, and that was a very good poll last year. 43:14 It is, what, what you're doing is, it's a good way of doing it, because this year especially, most of the defensive players are better than a lot of the offensive players. Yep. 43:22 But you the listener, you the reader, it's like, well, I, we need a receiver, we need a tight end. It can't just all be Tyler Warren. It can't just all be, uh, uh, Ashton Jeanty. Who else is out there? 43:31 That way you've got them there where people can find some of these guys and see what's good about them, 'cause there's a lot of good, and there's, a lot of times there's usually a question mark on every one of these guys's, uh, profile. 43:40 Absolutely. So a lot of fun stuff coming up. If you enjoy all of the coverage, if you enjoyed the show, please go ahead and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, leave us those five star reviews. 43:49 Make sure you subscribe to the Two Deep Zone on Substack. It's mandatory reading, and not just for the Monday column, but throughout the week on the Two Deep 96. Follow Mike Tanier on Blue Sky, he's @miketanier. 44:00 You can check me out at Between the Hash Marks on Substack, @mattbombardonfl on Threads, and @mattbombardo on Blue Sky. Mike, this has been a lot of fun as always. We'll talk to you in a couple weeks. 44:10 Matt, Matt, you sit there and you type with your statistics and your calculator. Let me tell you something, when we were the Carolina Panthers and we saw Cam Newton throw the football, we knew that was the guy
